Can there be such a thing as a "Liberal Dictatorship"?

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Walker
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Re: Can there be such a thing as a "Liberal Dictatorship"?

Post by Walker » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:40 pm

You're losing the point.
Dictatorship.
Good for the Singaporeans, not by conservative devices.

Skip
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Re: Can there be such a thing as a "Liberal Dictatorship"?

Post by Skip » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:20 pm

Being called a dictator is not the same as being a dictator.
If there is agreement by the public, whether its policies are liberal or conservative, the government is not dictating.
When challenged by popular opposiition, how the ruling party responds is the measure of whether they are, in fact, dictatorial, or governing by the consent of the governed.

Walker
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Re: Can there be such a thing as a "Liberal Dictatorship"?

Post by Walker » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:27 pm

Those people in Singapore hate gum. If you chew gum over there they will punish you. Throw you in jail or something. Fine you money. In US school our teachers were liberals and they were the same way as Singaporeans. They hated gum and would punish the kids for chewing it. They said we looked like a bunch of cows chewing a cud. Liberal, gum-hating dictatorships both in schools and Singapore.

Skip
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Re: Can there be such a thing as a "Liberal Dictatorship"?

Post by Skip » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:44 pm

Walker wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:27 pm
Those people in Singapore hate gum. If you chew gum over there they will punish you. Throw you in jail or something. Fine you money. In US school our teachers were liberals and they were the same way as Singaporeans. They hated gum and would punish the kids for chewing it. They said we looked like a bunch of cows chewing a cud. Liberal, gum-hating dictatorships both in schools and Singapore.
I see. I had no idea that all laws, rules and regulations were dictatorial.
I must be using a different dictionary.

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henry quirk
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"I see. I had no idea that all laws, rules and regulations were dictatorial."

Post by henry quirk » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:23 pm

There's always gonna be some *jackass who'll gripe about 'being restricted' (no matter how 'liberal' the law) so yeah, law, rules, and regs all have the potential to be dictatorial.

The measure is the population.

For a population of natural anarchists even the lightest regs chafe, and for a more domesticated population the same light regs might leave them feaful, ill at ease, and vulnerable.

The anarchists skew toward maximum self-direction; the domesticated skew toward (varying degrees of) direction or constraint by others. One sees tyranny in (any) law; the other derives comfort from law.

Eye of the beholder.









*like me

Skip
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Re: Can there be such a thing as a "Liberal Dictatorship"?

Post by Skip » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:46 am

So, just write your own dictionary? OK

In political parlance, dictatorship used to mean rule by force, intimidation and discriminatory laws.
In those days, a democratically elected administration was not considered a dictatorship unless it bypassed the democratic process to enact laws and retain power. A government that either comes to power by undemocratic means, or having come to power by democratic means, changes the political process so that it can't be voted out of power.
Or, as I mentioned earlier, governance without the consent of the governed.

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henry quirk
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"democratic means"

Post by henry quirk » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:44 am

You're right, nuthin' dictatorial about democratic process.

A larger group dictates to a smaller group 'this is how it's gonna be': nah, nuthin' tyrannical 'bout that.

#

"consent of the governed"

Translation: the consent of the majority (cuz, baby, if you're in the minority, your consent ain't required).

Skip
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Re: "democratic means"

Post by Skip » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:45 am

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:44 am
You're right, nuthin' dictatorial about democratic process.

A larger group dictates to a smaller group 'this is how it's gonna be': nah, nuthin' tyrannical 'bout that.

#

"consent of the governed"

Translation: the consent of the majority (cuz, baby, if you're in the minority, your consent ain't required).
Sometimes it isn't when you're a majority either. That still doesn't make anyone a dictator.
That's why countries make constitutions to test their new laws against, and institutions for the protection of minorities; that's why democracies generally have one or several means of redress, such as petition, protest, free press, freedom of association and assembly: so that whoever feels that injustice is being done has opportunities to convince the majority to change the law, and regular elections to change the representatives. That's how democratic nations are able to change their policies and practices in accordance with new modes of thought.
How well or badly it's working in any given nation is not at issue; only whether the mechanisms are in operation.

Walker
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Re: Can there be such a thing as a "Liberal Dictatorship"?

Post by Walker » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:52 am

Skip wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:44 pm
Walker wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:27 pm
Those people in Singapore hate gum. If you chew gum over there they will punish you. Throw you in jail or something. Fine you money. In US school our teachers were liberals and they were the same way as Singaporeans. They hated gum and would punish the kids for chewing it. They said we looked like a bunch of cows chewing a cud. Liberal, gum-hating dictatorships both in schools and Singapore.
I see. I had no idea that all laws, rules and regulations were dictatorial.
I must be using a different dictionary.
If you chew gum you don't break all laws. Duh.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:31 pm

"How well or badly it's working in any given nation is not at issue; only whether the mechanisms are in operation."

I'm tryin' to wrap my head around this: as long as the mechanism for redress and change is in place, the poorly run, badly run, criminally run, nation might be a crap sack, but can never be a dictatorship.

Never mind that the folks who ensure redress and change are the very folks who ignore that mechanism.

The mere presence of the mechanism precludes dictatorship.

That's it in a nutshell, yeah?

Skip
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Re:

Post by Skip » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:11 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:31 pm
Never mind that the folks who ensure redress and change are the very folks who ignore that mechanism.

The mere presence of the mechanism precludes dictatorship.

That's it in a nutshell, yeah?
Pretty much. That is to say, the US can still pull out of its political nose-dive, because those mechanisms are still in place and can be reformed. Once the coup has taken place and the president-in-waiting takes over, the first thing he will do is put sane and capable toadies in charge of Justice, Homeland Security and all the other agencies of public control; the second thing he'll do is remove, quietly, one by one, every means the average citizen has of opposing the government. That's what dictators do.
That's distinct from the common varieties of corruption and mismanagement.

Skip
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Re: Can there be such a thing as a "Liberal Dictatorship"?

Post by Skip » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:16 pm

Walker wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:52 am
[S - I had no idea that all laws, rules and regulations were dictatorial.]
If you chew gum you don't break all laws. Duh.
If you use and sell cocaine, you don't break all laws.
If you drive on the wrong side of the road, you don't break all laws.
If you marry a second and third wife, you don't break all laws.
If you show up on parade out of uniform, you don't break all laws.
If you boil a kid in its mother's milk, you don't break all laws.
Yet, each of those is an infraction of a rule that some organization has made and its members have agreed to abide by.
And yet making a law or rule against any single one of those acts, according to you, is dictatorship.
Unless you consider gum-chewing the one and only holy of holies against which making a rule is dictatorial.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:47 pm

"he'll do is remove, quietly, one by one, every means the average citizen has of opposing the government."

Neither Saunders nor Bill's husband are currently in line for the Big Chair, so...

no

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-1-
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Re: Can there be such a thing as a "Liberal Dictatorship"?

Post by -1- » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:02 pm

philosopher wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:41 pm
It may sound like a contradiction. After all, liberalism equals human rights and personal liberty, while Dictatorship equals to controlling the masses through use of military force.

But what if a Liberal Dictatorship has it as its goal to protect the weak & sick, the elderly and the homeless from the angry mobs of the common people?

This scenario sounds fine to me. I have no problems accepting ban on free speech and censorship, if the stuff that is censored is the anti-welfare speeches, like "There are too many disabled people on disability benefits" or "Unemployed people should be forced to work".

Instead, such a dictatorship would implement a Basic Income, levelled according to income to be financially sustainable of course, high taxes on other sources of income and Conscription will be replaced by a Defence Tax with highly skilled professional soldiers.

Their task would be to handle the crowds of the angry mobs, controlling them and - if need be - opening fire against them to protect the weaker members of society from the wrath of the mob.

It actually sounds like a good idea.
I think you just invented the Communist Manifesto and Stalin's and Hrushchev's Glasnonst' and Perestroika without the accompanying Terrorka.

The closest approximation to what you described describes the entire western industrialized world except the USA and the Vatican.

Impenitent
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Re: Can there be such a thing as a "Liberal Dictatorship"?

Post by Impenitent » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:56 pm

democratic classrooms... 20 gum chewing children vote to dictate to the teacher the correctness of their chewing...

arm the teachers

-Imp

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