Democracy is a logical fallacy

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gaffo
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Re: Democracy is a logical fallacy

Post by gaffo » Wed May 08, 2019 4:53 am

QuantumT wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:47 pm
Democracy is not the problem, it's the voters.

indeed.

QuantumT wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:47 pm
Because: If any idiot can vote, any idiot can get elected.
as we have scene - twice now.

gaffo
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Re: Democracy is a logical fallacy

Post by gaffo » Wed May 08, 2019 5:02 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:16 am
artisticsolution wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:55 pm
Democracy sees to it they don't have to suffer their stupid choices forever.
Without sarcasm, this is actually a great point.

American-style democracy takes for granted that people may sometimes be good, but also are NOT always good, not always smart, and don't always make the right choices. Thus, it checks and balances power in the hands of any individual, and at intervals, it allows for correction.

No form of totalitarianism, whether monarchy, dictatorship or communism, allows that. Instead, under such regimes, people suffer indefinitely the choices made by some putative authority figure, with voice, no second chance, and no prospect of change.

This is what it means to say, as per Disraeli, that democracy is not an ideal system -- while still recognizing that it's just the best thing we've ever discovered so far. After all, where in the world would you find a more congenial government system than in the democratic west? As has been often noted, whether of Cuba or of the Mediterranean migrants, "All the boats are going one way."

So, well said.
dont be naive, germany was a democratic republic, and legally voted in Hitler, who then removed the democracy.

Trump is less tallented, and so has not been able to remove our "checks and balences" - but the next more able dictator will - and we will vote the SOB in having done so twice now - they were untallented and so unable to remove our Constutition fuilly.

the next one will.


don;t be willfully blind, there is nothing unique about America that will prevent a thug from removing my Constitution/checks and balences.

all we need are more morons to vote for a more able Bush Jr/Trump - one with brains and talent for power - to remove America' Constitutional Republican system PERMANENTLY.

and when that happens i will no longer post here, and look to migrate to another land............while keeping my head low and in my shell.

gaffo
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Re: Democracy is a logical fallacy

Post by gaffo » Wed May 08, 2019 5:13 am

Greta wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:42 pm
The best thing about democracy is that it is not one of the alternatives. All possible alternatives so far have been tried, rejected and tried again, and the non democratic systems still routinely produce the kinds of power abuses that prompt people to agitate for democracy.

Still, it's not looking like there is a choice due to the distortion of democracy by Rupert Murdoch and other media demigods.
media consolidation - starting with Clinton and the radio stations (clear channel - SATAN!), then tv ownership, then newspapers. etc.

Disney anyone?

with consolidation of media comes death of democracy and birth of oligarchy.

20 yrs ago - its a long done deal now. fate comlpie(sp).

-but the pleabs are still playing against each other via bread and circuses - while the puppet masters smile with glee.

gaffo
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Re: Democracy is a logical fallacy

Post by gaffo » Wed May 08, 2019 5:16 am

-1- wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:38 pm
philosopher wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:35 pm
Democracy = Majority is always right.
I am sorry, but this basic premise is dead wrong. It is not true. If you build an argument on it, your argument will be invalid.

Now, you could start with "Democracy=Majority always wins." That would be true.
now WAIT A MINUTE!!!!!!!!!!!! Henry and I talked to you about why "the minority is more important than the majority" - in that other thread 3 months ago or so - and you did not understand our point!

did you understand it, and now on our side of the matter?

clairify please.

gaffo
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Re: Democracy is a logical fallacy

Post by gaffo » Wed May 08, 2019 5:19 am

philosopher wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:34 pm
-1- wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:38 pm
philosopher wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:35 pm
Democracy = Majority is always right.
I am sorry, but this basic premise is dead wrong. It is not true. If you build an argument on it, your argument will be invalid.

Now, you could start with "Democracy=Majority always wins." That would be true.
The majority believes they are right. The majority of voters believe in foolish stuff that experts say are wrong. The majority says the experts are wrong, and the people are right.
yes remove vacinations!!!!!!!!!!! let all get mumps, measles, rubbella, polio, and smallpox!

does a body good, at least those that live through the diseases will not become autistic!!!!!!!!

right?

gaffo
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Re: Democracy is a logical fallacy

Post by gaffo » Wed May 08, 2019 5:30 am

philosopher wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:15 pm
Charm wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:55 am
Too many are electing too few to offices which will corrupt them, and fill their bank accounts.. In the process, in this deeply divided society, fully half the people do not have representation they voted for... Is this democracy???.. We are seeing a society divided, and destroyed by halves.. There will always be a majority to vote the minority into poverty, war, and extinction.. Consider this fact, that all civilizations have been created out of conquest, and the purpose of the state with its laws was to maintain peace between those elements making up society.. Majority rule is not keeping us united, not giving us peace, but is dividing us, and it is making civil war, war, and invasion more likely.. As much as before the Civil War, we are a house divided.. If this is the privilege of the parties, to divide and weaken us, then show me where their privileges are listed in the constitution.. They have the right of assembly, and more.. If; -We would not choose to be divided if we were a democracy, then why are we allowing the parties to divide us, and cooperate only in doing us no Good??? It is because we are no democracy.. And we can hardly divide the term when our rulers have done so much to sow division, and mutual antipathy.

This is the question: How can we have privileges which take far more than a majority to deny, and still keep our rights.. I Ask, Because; Rights are essential to life, but privilege is essential to power, and power is essential to wealth.. Would we vote to grow ever poorer and always be poor and vote that they will grow more wealthy while we suffer degradation and poverty.. It is possible, because by going along in that social, moral democratic sense, that is what we are doing.. I am just less inclined to do so, and because so many must consider their own survival, that if we cooperated with each other, we would have democracy apart from the government as it stands..
Thank you very much for this post.

I'm going to answer your question:

What about a constitution that defines citizen rights as not only the right to vote, free speech etc. but also the right to welfare entitlements like Basic Income - that is, money given monthly to sustain yourself in your life, to afford a humble home, food, clothing, electricity etc. without requirement of work or other demands which are essentially slavery of the employers = the rich enslaving the workers?

This will free the citizens. This right should be granted in the constitution as, say 80-90 % of the established minimum income as Basic Income, only subject to reduction when other income is earned instead (like say 30 % off the Basic Income when you earn something, when the Basic Income turns into 0, you only pay taxes, no further reductions in anything). This will keep incentive to work, liberate the workers and create a healthy society where nobody can be deprived of their living just because they have another political opinion than their employers.
dissagree with the above Basic income. i support raising miminum wage to around 10 bucks, but not recieving income without working.

i affirm the need for working and striving for employment. i affirm unembloyment income for a time (I got it when out of work - and appreciated it) - but not indefinately.

philosopher wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:15 pm
The constitution should entitle all people the right to free assembly and free speech against the government, but it cannot be changed without 3/4 of the voters voting "yes" to reform the constitution. This will make it virtually impossible to take away these rights/privileges of the people for any government, no matter how authoritarian it is.
3/4 of "voters" can mandate a change to the Constution to no avail (are you an American? - if so you should know better). what is required is for 3/4 of the State Legislatures to vote for a change - to amend the constitution.

until that time 3/4 of popular vote will do nothing to change the constitution.

gaffo
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Re:

Post by gaffo » Wed May 08, 2019 5:31 am

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:20 pm
"What about a constitution that defines citizen rights as not only the right to vote, free speech etc. but also the right to welfare entitlements like Basic Income - that is, money given monthly to sustain yourself in your life, to afford a humble home, food, clothing, electricity etc. without requirement of work or other demands which are essentially slavery of the employers = the rich enslaving the workers?"

Who pays for it?

Where does this money come from?
we do, from us ;-(.

gaffo
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Re: Democracy is a logical fallacy

Post by gaffo » Wed May 08, 2019 5:38 am

Charm wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:59 am

Many of the defined rights of the present constitution are in fact, privileges.. A right is essential to life or to happiness and so they should be couched and defined in the most general terms..
Correct - those Rights are refered to as Nature Law Rights, and pre-1776 Brit Common Law Rights - such as the ones i mentioned in prior post and refered to in the affirmative in my Constitution's 9th amendment.

Most of the rest of the UIS Constitution is about privaleges - not all though 5th? (crewl and unusual punshiment) 6th legal representation..........are viewed as natural rights and afforded to illegal immigrants generally. I bleive the 1st is also afforded to illegals too BTW.

gaffo
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Re:

Post by gaffo » Wed May 08, 2019 5:42 am

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:22 pm
back candidates who promise to minimize the role of gvernment, and
no, back candidates that will work to REVERSE Citizens United - and restore Gov by the people and for the people.

not gov by the lobbyists and bought out by the Lobbyist!!!!!!!!!

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Democracy is a logical fallacy

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed May 08, 2019 1:29 pm

gaffo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 4:41 am
sadly we've lost the respect you and i have of the concept you speak of - america is all about identity victimhood egoism now.
I some quarters, I'm sure that's probably true. But I don't think it's "all" as you suggest.

I know Americans who are still thankful for their history, though I admit there are some who think it's their business to dig up every mistake and failure in that past, and to treat those things as the totality of American achievement.

I like the comment that was made about the Cuban migration back in the '80s -- "All the boats go one way."

Though I don't live there, I'm not silly enough not to see what's right before my eyes. There are problems, sure: but there are few places in the world in which you are as free to raise them and deal with them as the U.S., and you have the best resources for changing things if you're there. You're more in control of your own destiny in America than probably anywhere else. So the Left is just talking rot.

Everybody wants to get to America...even many Europeans do. If America is the place of oppression, exploitation, misery, racism, and so forth that the Left would like to say it is, just why do the boats all go one way? Where are the floods of immigrants desperately seeking to get into China, Venezuela or Saudi Arabia?

The world is voting with its feet, and it votes for America, no matter what Leftists say.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Democracy is a logical fallacy

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm

gaffo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 5:02 am
germany was a democratic republic, and legally voted in Hitler, who then removed the democracy.
To know why, you'd have to know about German history. It's not the kind of history you have in the U.S....and I know both.
Trump is less tallented, and so has not been able to remove our "checks and balences" - but the next more able dictator will - and we will vote the SOB in having done so twice now - they were untallented and so unable to remove our Constutition fuilly.
This is terribly silly, as a comment, I have to say. And really, in all kindness, I have to say you'd do your view a better service if you settled down and used less implausible rhetoric. At the moment, nobody with sense is failing to detect the hyperbole.

Now, I'm not a Trumpist, but here's the truth: for an American, there's actually zero reason to hate the guy. He's basically just a bombastic American businessman, with a talent for showmanship. He's no racist, no Nazi, no totalitarian...in fact, he was a Democrat until recently. He's a chameleon, a media creature, not a malevolent despot. And he's a bit amoral, but not as bad as, say, Clinton. (Why the Democrats want to pick on a "groper" when they also laud a serial rapist is beyond me, frankly...it smacks of real hypocrisy, I have to say.)

Now, I don't care for either team. I just observe from outside. That being said, I have to be impressed that Trump has done so much so fast, especially with the economy. Much of what he's done has hurt my country, and we're feeling the pain quite sharply...but I have to recognize that he's done what an American president is supposed to do -- to contend vigorously for the interests of the American people, over and against foreign incursions. So I don't blame him for that. I just wish he was a little less successful at it. Meanwhile, he's removed no "checks and balances," and he's broken the Democrat-media monopoly on public information. He's been way smarter than both factions in handling their own tools. But I see no malevolence there, no "Nazi plot," and frankly the Democrats seem to have simply lost their brains since he came to office.

If they were smart, they'd drop the hyperbole and get some smart policies of their own, instead of crying "Nazi" all the time. But as far as I can see, there are no really astute Democrat candidates at the moment. They'd better get one fast, somebody better than they have on tap right now, or they can expect an even bigger majority for Trump in a couple of years. He's managed to do a lot of what he promised, and he's been a lot less bad than people thought he would be.

And that's the take from outside the country. You can like it or not, but it's not a partisan observation. I have no stake in either outcome, except maybe it would be better for me if a weaker American president were running the show. Like I say, Trump's beaten us, so far.

gaffo
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Re: Democracy is a logical fallacy

Post by gaffo » Fri May 10, 2019 1:48 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
gaffo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 5:02 am
germany was a democratic republic, and legally voted in Hitler, who then removed the democracy.
To know why, you'd have to know about German history. It's not the kind of history you have in the U.S....and I know both.
Trump is less tallented, and so has not been able to remove our "checks and balences" - but the next more able dictator will - and we will vote the SOB in having done so twice now - they were untallented and so unable to remove our Constutition fuilly.
This is terribly silly, as a comment, I have to say. And really, in all kindness, I have to say you'd do your view a better service if you settled down and used less implausible rhetoric. At the moment, nobody with sense is failing to detect the hyperbole.
wow, thanks for putting me in my place.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
Now, I'm not a Trumpist,
Good, after you put me in my place, i was beginning to wonder.

you make accurate observations about Trump below which i agree with - not with your conclusions though - will address below.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
but here's the truth: for an American, there's actually zero reason to hate the guy.
I don't hate him i fear him - more aptly i fear the electorate that elected him more.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
He's basically just a bombastic American businessman, with a talent for showmanship.
agreed.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
He's no racist, no Nazi, no totalitarian...
disagree fully on all counts.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
in fact, he was a Democrat until recently.
yes i know this. irrelevant.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
He's a chameleon,
agreed.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
a media creature,
ibid
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
not a malevolent despot.
fully disagree, he is all ego - but without a "Vision beyond him" - so more a Stalin than a Hitler.

small comfort, but some, since he has no "grand vision" like Hitler did.

but of the same nature - pure egoist - only thank God much dumber and more transparent than "that other guy"

but being an egoist Trump would throw the Consitution under the bus/etc - destroy America, for a few more ego point boosts toward his way.

i.e. add a 5 point rating to the Trump brand (i,e, "Trump! we love Trump") - and that sad sack of shit would burn my Constitution with glee for the 5-pointer.

as that makes him a "malevolent despot" wannabe - and in practive as long as we have the 1/3 of America's population playing Bhah Bhah sheople.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
And he's a bit amoral, but not as bad as, say, Clinton.
Clinton is a creep and a dick - and like Trump - BOTH are far more than "amoral" - why you think Bill was worse, when both are fully thugs is beyone me. welcome why you think Heir Trump is more moral than the worm Bill. (his wife 9Bill's - Donalds i think is ok gal - maybe not so smart, but not evil (has morals - though married for $$ clearly - so i not that - so he ain't mother terrisa) is of course no better).

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
(Why the Democrats want to pick on a "groper" when they also laud a serial rapist is beyond me, frankly...it smacks of real hypocrisy, I have to say.)

honestly, i have not clue about the above, clarify if you like so i can learn.

BTW you an American? or not? - your post implied that you may not be, but now not sure (of course is none of my business - i'm not facefuck/zuk)
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
Now, I don't care for either team. I just observe from outside.
same here.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
That being said, I have to be impressed that Trump has done so much so fast, especially with the economy.
economy is its own beast - presidents claim the credit when it goes well and blame the prior one when it flounders.


I liked Bush Sr very much - he "took a dive" over a failing economy, and Clinton won in 92, then the latter took credit - until the "net bust" - but by then he was out of office so he did not care (of course Gore did! - and the latter lost!).

so ya, if you think my president has influence over the economy, be my guest in thinking this.

i do not think is so though.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
Much of what he's done has hurt my country, and we're feeling the pain quite sharply...but I have to recognize that he's done what an American president is supposed to do -- to contend vigorously for the interests of the American people, over and against foreign incursions.
HA!!!!!!!! from the modicum you revealed above, i suspect you are Canadian!!!!!!!??????!!!!!!!!!

and yes of course all presidents,pms, etc..........should have their nations interests first and foremost!!!!!!!

Trump just has he Him and Himself foremost and when my nations interests counter his personal one, he will throw my nation under the bus!!!!!!!

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
So I don't blame him for that.

and? why would/should you? Trudou(sp) (the younger is not the elder i fear - at least not yet) would do the same!


Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
Meanwhile, he's removed no "checks and balances,"
pure bullshit!!!!!!!!! "sir" "that "man"" have attacked both the FBI and the CIA!!!!!!!!!!! undermining the Rule of Law/Checks and Balances.

He has also attacked the other VITAL check and balance the "forth estate" - the press!!!!!!!! undermining again the same Rule of Law - per the check on the power of the presidency.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:48 pm
and he's broken the Democrat-media monopoly on public information.
ok - now i know i waste my time - goodbye bot.

"democrat media" gave you away.

Ameircan Media sucks because Clinton allowed for the "corporatisation" (Consolidation of media/press/tv/radio (fuck clear channel BTW - ruined radio 20 yrs ago). media consolidation = death of democracy.

Clinton - a so called Dem did that. Taft Hartly, and the other one - name i forget - are laws on the books to break up such monsters/enemies of my Republic.


.......but i digress. you are a "Bot" with no understanding of the real picture, you just soak up what you here from Hannity/jones and company.

your "democrat (no "IC" - another give away) media" gave you away.

snipped the rest of your post - nor bothered to read it.

i know your mindset now, and you are a follower and not an indepentant thinker.

goodbye and good luck.

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