Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

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Science Fan
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Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

Post by Science Fan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:10 pm

Since this issue came up in response to the last post I wrote, I thought I would directly address some of the substantive claims of gun-control advocates. The claims of gun-control advocates are at odds with our western traditions regarding justice and morality.

Gun control advocates seek to take away guns from lawful gun owners who have violated no laws. Now, how is that consistent with western traditions of justice? It's not. In the west, we have long recognized that a person cannot be punished for the wrongful acts of others, but only for their own wrongful acts. Yet, gun-control advocates seek to punish millions of lawful gun owners by punishing them for the acts of others who behave criminally. This is the equivalent of banning all alcoholic beverages because some people drive while under the influence. Or, banning all prescription drugs because some people illegal use prescription drugs. Or, banning all sex acts because some people commit rape. Gun control advocates should openly admit that they are against our most basic principle of justice ---- limiting punishment to actual wrongdoers as opposed to punishing the innocent.

The very leftists who seek to ban guns also engage in hypocrisy in light of their obsession with identity politics. After all, the minorities are the ones who are at greater risk if guns are outlawed in general. For example, if Jews are not allowed to own guns, then they will be at greater risk from assaults by Jew-haters, many of whom are gun-control advocates. Now then, what right does the majority of leftists have to place minorities at a disadvantage? Especially when this is the same left that argues majorities should never claim that they can understand the plight of minorities? I would love to see a leftist explain their own hypocrisy on this issue.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:05 pm

I think the typical gun-control advocate would then argue that certain guns have no practical use other then killing mass amounts of people. They don't usually see having something like an AR-15 as a practice of any real freedom because people are not using it as an actual utility in the same way that even a handgun could practically be used for self-defense. They don't mind sacrificing freedom for security, because they don't see it as very much of a freedom at all vs the security it depreciates. In the most extreme demonstration of this principle, one could say that this is the same reason why someone shouldn't allowed to own a nuclear bomb. Of course there are recreational shooters and collectors who own them simply for the sake of owning them, but that doesn't make a strong enough case to justify its legislation for the gun-control advocate.

The reason why I've always disagree with this approach is because I think it would in fact take away freedom and security. In the short term it may reduce the number of fatalities from gun violence, but in the long term I believe it would only end up giving more power to the drug cartels, and other parts of the black market, which would have much more drastic ramifications. You see a lot of people calling for a parallel to Australia's assault weapon ban, but I think a more accurate parallel to give you a picture of how it would turn out would be the war on drugs. You can't always take two countries and expect them to have identical results to the same legislation. It's exactly why the drug war over in the Philippines and China actually does work in the sense of reducing drug use, but it clearly hasn't given us the same results here.
Last edited by Sir-Sister-of-Suck on Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Impenitent
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Re: Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

Post by Impenitent » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:50 pm

just wait until someone firebombs a school with molotov cocktails...

the leftists will scream to ban gasoline

let the revolution begin

-Imp

Skip
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Re: Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

Post by Skip » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:28 pm

Banning gasoline is actually a very good idea for several reasons other than preventing mass murder - like preventing mass extinctions.
But that's another one of those awful leftist, round-earther, godless ideas.
The revolution has been underway for a while now.
Be afraid -
your children are coming for your guns and SUV's.

Impenitent
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Re: Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

Post by Impenitent » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:42 pm

no fear... johnny jihad doesn't want a nuke and we'd never use one either

obey

-Imp

Skip
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Re: Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

Post by Skip » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:23 am

So, you're Johnnie Jihad's dad? That explains.... nothing.

artisticsolution
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Re: Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

Post by artisticsolution » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:54 pm

Science Fan wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:10 pm

Gun control advocates seek to take away guns from lawful gun owners who have violated no laws.
You are either being dishonest here or you have a terrible misconception. I dont think I've ever heard a 'leftist' making this claim. Are you sure you weren't being brainwashed by some propaganda?

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Gary Childress
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Re: Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

Post by Gary Childress » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:53 pm

I don't know. I sort of cringe at the idea of local gun shops selling rocket launchers to law abiding citizens. I mean, EVERYONE starts out as a law abiding citizen, until some of us do something that isn't. To me it's a matter of limiting access to things to the public that present a potential danger that may be greater than or outweigh the need to allow average citizens access to it. There are many relatively reasonable weapons on the market such as a revolver for self defense. But some firearms out there on the civilian market really go beyond self defense into the realm of, "I could start my own insurgency with this."

I shudder to think how immoral these observations must make me.

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Kayla
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Re: Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

Post by Kayla » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:12 pm

so whether or not more gun control would save lives is not an important question for you?

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Kayla
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Re: Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

Post by Kayla » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:28 pm

the comparison between guns and gasoline is spurious

i need gasoline products for my normal activities - including running a business - if i dont get them, neither you nor i will eat

i need guns for dealing with some local wildlife i do not need an ak-47 for that

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:24 pm

As I say here: https://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=33514

...if I want a bazooka, can find a bazooka, can meet the price asked for, then I'm gonna have a bazooka. Whether I'm 'allowed' to or not won't figure into my reasoning except as such restrictions will shape how I go about locating and buying that bazooka.

Where the law is sensible to me, I got no problem abiding; where the the law is nonsensical, I got no problem navigating around.

Now, there are folks out there, some of my acquaintance, who probably shouldn't be allowed to own and use spoons, but -- bein' a mind your own business, keep your hands to yourself kinda guy -- I'm inclined to let them off themselves by way of their own incompetence and be ready to self-defend if they look my way too hard. I'm not inclined to hobble them.

Impenitent
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Re: Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

Post by Impenitent » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:12 pm

hobbling your opponent with a spoon would be a good trick...

-Imp

artisticsolution
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Re: Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

Post by artisticsolution » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:08 am

The only rational argument for gun ownership is freedom. We all can cite reasons why should or should not be able to own guns, but those usually come from irrational fear, superior motives, i.e. ones own reasons for wanting a gun.

I've heard every self motivated reason in the book, and all are not good enough to warrant the responsibilty to be trusted to own a gun. 'Because I deserve it and want it and can be trusted' is not a rational reason. It means nothing.

Most everyone feels they can be trusted but another cannot. Selfish reason is not good enough to be a gun owner.

However, if one comes from an argument for freedom, the flimsy excuse of selfish desire breaks down to expose the true childish rationale behind the tantrum mantra, 'I want my gun!'

If instead, one makes the argument, 'It is a part of mankind's freedom to own a gun" then we can begin to have a fair and justifiable argument that gives consideration to the reasonable, fair minded, and equality based constitution.

However, i must warn you...being rational and fair minded comes with a price tag. You must pay with your own selfish ideas and instead think more about your fellow man. In order to be entrusted with being capable of thinking rationally and fairly you must first be willing to give in order to get. If we make argument based on the freedom our constitution allows us, we can clearly see how unfair , illogical, and childish we are when we say things like, "i want to own my gun, but i dont want you to smoke pot/drink alcohol' or 'I want to keep you from having an abortion but I want to abuse children by taking them from thier parents whenever i deem necessary .'

The problem is not guns as much as it is our unreasonable thinking.

The most disgusting thing i overheard one of my 'friends' say the other day was that she hoped that liberals started a civil war. Her reasoning being that she and her republican friends owned all the guns and would be able to get rid of all the liberals by shooting them .

If thats not a reason for gun control i dont know what is. It used to be that shooting an unarmed person was an act of cowardice. When and how did we get to this line of thinking?!

Is this rational thinking? Is it rational to allow yourself to get whipped up into a frenzy so embedded in you that you start to believe you are doing good by getting rid of those who oppose you?!

What a odd world we live in where one would relish killing an unarmed person simply because they voiced an opinion.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:19 am

artisticsolution wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:08 am
The only rational argument for gun ownership is freedom. We all can cite reasons why should or should not be able to own guns, but those usually come from irrational fear, superior motives, i.e. ones own reasons for wanting a gun.

I've heard every self motivated reason in the book, and all are not good enough to warrant the responsibilty to be trusted to own a gun. 'Because I deserve it and want it and can be trusted' is not a rational reason. It means nothing.

Most everyone feels they can be trusted but another cannot. Selfish reason is not good enough to be a gun owner.

However, if one comes from an argument for freedom, the flimsy excuse of selfish desire breaks down to expose the true childish rationale behind the tantrum mantra, 'I want my gun!'

If instead, one makes the argument, 'It is a part of mankind's freedom to own a gun" then we can begin to have a fair and justifiable argument that gives consideration to the reasonable, fair minded, and equality based constitution.

However, i must warn you...being rational and fair minded comes with a price tag. You must pay with your own selfish ideas and instead think more about your fellow man. In order to be entrusted with being capable of thinking rationally and fairly you must first be willing to give in order to get. If we make argument based on the freedom our constitution allows us, we can clearly see how unfair , illogical, and childish we are when we say things like, "i want to own my gun, but i dont want you to smoke pot/drink alcohol' or 'I want to keep you from having an abortion but I want to abuse children by taking them from thier parents whenever i deem necessary .'

The problem is not guns as much as it is our unreasonable thinking.

The most disgusting thing i overheard one of my 'friends' say the other day was that she hoped that liberals started a civil war. Her reasoning being that she and her republican friends owned all the guns and would be able to get rid of all the liberals by shooting them .

If thats not a reason for gun control i dont know what is. It used to be that shooting an unarmed person was an act of cowardice. When and how did we get to this line of thinking?!

Is this rational thinking? Is it rational to allow yourself to get whipped up into a frenzy so embedded in you that you start to believe you are doing good by getting rid of those who oppose you?!

What a odd world we live in where one would relish killing an unarmed person simply because they voiced an opinion.
''Freedom'' isn't an argument. It's just a word.

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Greta
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Re: Gun Control Advocates are Immoral

Post by Greta » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:26 am

I don't know of any societies that deny guns to law abiding citizens. In Australia, known for its "tough" gun laws, it's not hard to get a licence and buy guns, just as long as you aren't a crim, don't need to have a machine gun, don't need to keep heaps of lethal weapons at home and are prepared to store weapons safely, out of the reach of children.

This whole "they are going to take our guns away!" is a myth perpetrated by those receiving fair sums from arms companies and swallowed by those whose fears are played upon by the companies and their representatives.
Last edited by Greta on Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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