A New Constitution

How should society be organised, if at all?

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TimTimothy
Posts: 25
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Re: A New Constitution

Post by TimTimothy » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:19 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:37 am
TimTimothy wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:52 pm
...and if you believe power is all that deserves freedom, then there's no need for a constitution, a government, or law/rule of any kind.
might makes right
-Imp
Yes. That's the law of nature in most cases. Humans have the ability, in my opinion, to transcend natural tendencies. Which is why we attempt governments and constitutions.

OuterLimits
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: A New Constitution

Post by OuterLimits » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:41 pm

I'd replace the stoplight at a busy intersection with one word: consent.
(Watch out! That first step's a doozy !)

artisticsolution
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Re: A New Constitution

Post by artisticsolution » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:12 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:37 am
TimTimothy wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:52 pm
...and if you believe power is all that deserves freedom, then there's no need for a constitution, a government, or law/rule of any kind.
might makes right

-Imp
Might crucified Jesus...does that mean it was "right"?

Impenitent
Posts: 1757
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: A New Constitution

Post by Impenitent » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:21 am

artisticsolution wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:12 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:37 am
TimTimothy wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:52 pm
...and if you believe power is all that deserves freedom, then there's no need for a constitution, a government, or law/rule of any kind.
might makes right

-Imp
Might crucified Jesus...does that mean it was "right"?
certainly- without the crucifixion, there is no resurrection or salvation

then again, who you gonna believe?

-Imp

Impenitent
Posts: 1757
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: A New Constitution

Post by Impenitent » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:25 am

TimTimothy wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:19 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:37 am
TimTimothy wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:52 pm
...and if you believe power is all that deserves freedom, then there's no need for a constitution, a government, or law/rule of any kind.
might makes right
-Imp
Yes. That's the law of nature in most cases. Humans have the ability, in my opinion, to transcend natural tendencies. Which is why we attempt governments and constitutions.
no, we attempt government and constitutions based on the promise of controlling the actions of the other person; as well as the promise of stealing the other's possessions and redistributing them in the name of fairness...

-Imp

artisticsolution
Posts: 1901
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Re: A New Constitution

Post by artisticsolution » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:20 am

Impenitent wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:21 am
artisticsolution wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:12 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:37 am


might makes right

-Imp
Might crucified Jesus...does that mean it was "right"?
certainly- without the crucifixion, there is no resurrection or salvation

then again, who you gonna believe?

-Imp
You are confusing what is "right" with what is "destined".

I don't think Jesus or God would think it was right to crucify an innocent man...even if the majority thought so...do you?

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TimTimothy
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:30 pm

Re: A New Constitution

Post by TimTimothy » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:55 pm

OuterLimits wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:41 pm
I'd replace the stoplight at a busy intersection with one word: consent.
(Watch out! That first step's a doozy !)
Should I take this as a serious critique? :-)

User avatar
TimTimothy
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:30 pm

Re: A New Constitution

Post by TimTimothy » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:58 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:25 am
TimTimothy wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:19 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:37 am

might makes right
-Imp
Yes. That's the law of nature in most cases. Humans have the ability, in my opinion, to transcend natural tendencies. Which is why we attempt governments and constitutions.
no, we attempt government and constitutions based on the promise of controlling the actions of the other person; as well as the promise of stealing the other's possessions and redistributing them in the name of fairness...

-Imp
So, peasants rose up against overlords to steal the overlord's goods? Or, do you have it backwards? The Overlord was stealing the productive labor of the peasants and they rose up to reclaim their goods?

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:46 pm

I get 'consent' but there's ambiguity there, and where there's ambiguity there's a jackass to exploit it.

I like the constitution 'as is', mostly cuz it makes for inefficent and (sometimes) ineffective government (government too busy with itself to be worryin' much about 'me').

But, if I had to draft a new one, the following works (for me)...

Mind your own business, keep your hands to yourself...or else.

Impenitent
Posts: 1757
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: A New Constitution

Post by Impenitent » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:03 am

artisticsolution wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:20 am
Impenitent wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:21 am
artisticsolution wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:12 pm


Might crucified Jesus...does that mean it was "right"?
certainly- without the crucifixion, there is no resurrection or salvation

then again, who you gonna believe?

-Imp
You are confusing what is "right" with what is "destined".

I don't think Jesus or God would think it was right to crucify an innocent man...even if the majority thought so...do you?
if it was destined, then it must occur regardless of right or wrong

I wouldn't presume to think for god; I'm simply going from what is recorded that he did

-Imp

Impenitent
Posts: 1757
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: A New Constitution

Post by Impenitent » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:07 am

TimTimothy wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:58 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:25 am
TimTimothy wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:19 pm


Yes. That's the law of nature in most cases. Humans have the ability, in my opinion, to transcend natural tendencies. Which is why we attempt governments and constitutions.
no, we attempt government and constitutions based on the promise of controlling the actions of the other person; as well as the promise of stealing the other's possessions and redistributing them in the name of fairness...

-Imp
So, peasants rose up against overlords to steal the overlord's goods? Or, do you have it backwards? The Overlord was stealing the productive labor of the peasants and they rose up to reclaim their goods?
no, the new overlords convinced the peasants to give them (the new overlords) power, when the new overlords promised the peasants welfare checks

-Imp

artisticsolution
Posts: 1901
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Contact:

Re: A New Constitution

Post by artisticsolution » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:17 am

Impenitent wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:03 am
artisticsolution wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:20 am
Impenitent wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:21 am


certainly- without the crucifixion, there is no resurrection or salvation

then again, who you gonna believe?

-Imp
You are confusing what is "right" with what is "destined".

I don't think Jesus or God would think it was right to crucify an innocent man...even if the majority thought so...do you?
if it was destined, then it must occur regardless of right or wrong

I wouldn't presume to think for god; I'm simply going from what is recorded that he did

-Imp
If you say, 'might makes right', then there is no right and wrong, because everything could be right or wrong depending on how the majority swayed.

And as far as God goes...and whether or not he wants us to think about his words...of course he does. If he didnt he wouldnt write a book of rules regarding what he thinks is right and wrong.

artisticsolution
Posts: 1901
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Contact:

Re: A New Constitution

Post by artisticsolution » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:57 am

Impenitent wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:07 am
TimTimothy wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:58 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:25 am


no, we attempt government and constitutions based on the promise of controlling the actions of the other person; as well as the promise of stealing the other's possessions and redistributing them in the name of fairness...

-Imp
So, peasants rose up against overlords to steal the overlord's goods? Or, do you have it backwards? The Overlord was stealing the productive labor of the peasants and they rose up to reclaim their goods?
no, the new overlords convinced the peasants to give them (the new overlords) power, when the new overlords promised the peasants welfare checks

-Imp
And then the new overlords renigged on the welfare checks...lol

Impenitent
Posts: 1757
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: A New Constitution

Post by Impenitent » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:56 pm

artisticsolution wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:17 am
Impenitent wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:03 am
artisticsolution wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:20 am


You are confusing what is "right" with what is "destined".

I don't think Jesus or God would think it was right to crucify an innocent man...even if the majority thought so...do you?
if it was destined, then it must occur regardless of right or wrong

I wouldn't presume to think for god; I'm simply going from what is recorded that he did

-Imp
If you say, 'might makes right', then there is no right and wrong, because everything could be right or wrong depending on how the majority swayed.

And as far as God goes...and whether or not he wants us to think about his words...of course he does. If he didnt he wouldnt write a book of rules regarding what he thinks is right and wrong.
exactly, there is no right or wrong except for what the "victor" claims it to be, and no, not the majority, the mighty

he wrote the book? which original text?

-Imp

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TimTimothy
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:30 pm

Re: A New Constitution

Post by TimTimothy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:14 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:03 am
artisticsolution wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:20 am
Impenitent wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:21 am
certainly- without the crucifixion, there is no resurrection or salvation
then again, who you gonna believe?
-Imp
You are confusing what is "right" with what is "destined".

I don't think Jesus or God would think it was right to crucify an innocent man...even if the majority thought so...do you?
if it was destined, then it must occur regardless of right or wrong

I wouldn't presume to think for god; I'm simply going from what is recorded that he did

-Imp
Ah...a god believer, now I understand.

Anyone who accepts the bible and god's power without question has a much different value system than I do. And therefore, it's unlikely we can have a productive conversation. It's just a gap too far. Cheers!

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