~ The Birth of Catalan ~

How should society be organised, if at all?

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:37 pm

The Electoral (not a perfect system) safeguards a state like mine (Louisiana) from being dominated by a state like California.

Folks can kvetch all they like about the majority being subverted by a minority, but me, I'm grateful to have a system in place (however imperfect) that blunts the will of the mob (which is what a popular vote democracy is all about).

The U.S. is a nation made up of 50 autonomous states, states largely on an even footing (despite significant differences among them) with each other because, for example, we folks in Louisiana get to pick our representatives and we don't have to listen to what folks in California (for example) have to say about it.

Only one election in the U.S. approaches being national and that's the presidential and to make this a popular vote hobbles my state in favor of those with larger populations. So, to balance and check, we have 50 state elections for president, with the majority vote in each directing electors in each so as to (imperfectly) allow states to remain on an even footing with one another.

American government is not perfect or smooth or efficient, which is kinda the point...our government is supposed to be slowish, and encumbered, and self-attacking, and sometimes in- or less than-effective...this shambling and lurching of our government is a safeguard against an over-bearing iteration of government.


And: America is not a representative democracy, she's a constitutional republic...democratic processes (especially locally) play a role but are not the dominant force (especially nationally) in America.

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Lacewing
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Re:

Post by Lacewing » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:41 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:08 pm
Indeed...Clinton won the popular vote by 3 million, not 3 billion, and that 3 million was mostly out of California.
Oh, sorry!... millions, not billions! :lol: It's easy to get carried away when talking to Bob.

So what if they're in California? They're progressive and smart and deserve all of their votes for their government to be counted. :D

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:45 pm

"They're awesome and smart and deserve all of their votes for their government to be counted."

And we in Louisiana, a sovereign state, deserve to not be drowned out by California simply cuz they're 'bigger'.

The Electoral is -- again -- not perfect, but it's the best we have for preserving statehood AND nationhood.

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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by bobevenson » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:53 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:20 pm
Given only 58% turned out to vote last time I think you can kiss goodbye to the idea that you're a representative democracy.
Anybody who votes is a fool because his vote will not decide an election. That's why 58% is golden for the AEP and its Champaign Sherry Principle.

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Re:

Post by bobevenson » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:56 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:45 pm
"They're awesome and smart and deserve all of their votes for their government to be counted."

And we in Louisiana, a sovereign state, deserve to not be drowned out by California simply cuz they're 'bigger'.

The Electoral is -- again -- not perfect, but it's the best we have for preserving statehood AND nationhood.
Henry, unfortunately you're talking to a woman who has absolutely no understanding of what you're talking about and couldn't care less.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:05 pm

Yeah, I know...*shrug*...posting is just sumthin' to do...I expect no serious rebuttal from the anti-america/american crowd.

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Re: Re:

Post by Lacewing » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:19 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:56 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:45 pm
"They're awesome and smart and deserve all of their votes for their government to be counted."

And we in Louisiana, a sovereign state, deserve to not be drowned out by California simply cuz they're 'bigger'.

The Electoral is -- again -- not perfect, but it's the best we have for preserving statehood AND nationhood.
Henry, unfortunately you're talking to a woman who has absolutely no understanding of what you're talking about and couldn't care less.
I don't even live in California... but I think that each person deserves for their vote to count regardless of where they live. And I don't think it should be any more convoluted than that. If there are more progressive people in the U.S., why should they be bogged down by coal-burning, pussy-grabbing, bible-thumping people? That stuff doesn't need to direct or represent the entire country, when most people are not like that.

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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by bobevenson » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:33 pm

See, Henry, you might as well try talking to the wall because at least you'll get an echo that makes sense.
Last edited by bobevenson on Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lacewing
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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by Lacewing » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:51 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:33 pm
See, Henry, you might a well try talking to the wall because at least you'll get an echo that makes sense.
Take it from Bob... that's what he does.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:53 pm

Yeah, I know, Bob...she ignored everything I wrote, fixating on *'democracy', and then throwin' in an insult to top it off.

Like I said: no serious rebuttal.









*again, the U.S. is not a democracy but a constitutional republic...democratic process has a role but is not the dominant force....no, the constitution trumps the caprice of the majority and the constitution is designed to, literally, protect the one from the predations of the many, sumthin' democracy, by definition, does not...as I told Belinda in another thread, the degree to which America fails, is failing, is directly tied to the degree America dis-embeds itself from the constitution and principles underlying the constitution (which, by the way, is an overtly 'libertarian' [not a progressive or conservative] document).

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Lacewing
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Re:

Post by Lacewing » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:06 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:53 pm
Yeah, I know, Bob...she ignored everything I wrote, fixating on *'democracy', and then throwin' in an insult to top it off.

Like I said: no serious rebuttal.
I did not ignore what you said, Henry -- and I DID offer a serious rebuttal. It may not be the language you're used to, but I thought I was making valid points just as you think you are. And my snarky comment was not about the people of Louisiana or any group in particular. I just don't happen to consider coal-burning, pussy-grabbing, bible-thumping people very progressive... wherever they may be... and some are in California.

> the constitution is designed to, literally, protect the one from the predations of the many

How do we know when that stops making sense in humankind's evolution? Do we ever evolve? Do we need to evolve? How do we recognize when we're dependent on the familiar to such a degree that we stunt ourselves?

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:22 pm

Lace, sayin' every man deserves to have his vote counted is not a serious rebttal and does ignore what I wrote (America is not a democracy).

And: evolution is nuthin' but change and not all change is 'good'...as a self-director, the human individual is unique in that he can choose his direction, choose to initiate change, or reject change...what little I know of your 'politics' I'm guessin' the direction you'd like to see man go in isn't one I'd favor.

#

And, for the record, to be libertarian is simply to mind one's own business and to keep one's hands to one's self.

To be libertarian is not to be anti-community, or incompassionate...rather to be libertarian is to self-direct, to be self-responsible, to self-rely.

'libertarian' has been sullied by nimrods who formalize it into 'philosophy' and 'party'...such folks call themelves 'Libertarian' while workin' hard to get their hands on the pie they had no part in crafting, which is to say they're just parasites like the repub/cons and dem/progs.

Me, I'm libertarian (a self-directing -responsible individual who takes a dim view of being told what I can or cannot, what I should or should not, do with my first, best property [myself]).

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Lacewing
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Re:

Post by Lacewing » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:49 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:22 pm
Lace, sayin' every man deserves to have his vote counted is not a serious rebttal and does ignore what I wrote (America is not a democracy).
Well, I guess that's how it seems to you. That's not how it seems to me. I don't see a need to argue (or be bound/driven by) what America supposedly is or is not. I'm focusing on what I think is fair... and I understand you don't agree. I don't really think in terms of Republican, Democrat, or Libertarian. I have voted Libertarian before. I just look at the spirit and quality of the people... or the systems... or the laws... or whatever.
henry quirk wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:22 pm
And: evolution is nuthin' but change and not all change is 'good'...
Evolution can simply be expanding the way we think. It doesn't have to disrupt our entire structure. Broadening and opening our minds... respecting and protecting diversity... being less driven by selfish ego -- are all ways to evolve that seem useful.
henry quirk wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:22 pm
what little I know of your 'politics' I'm guessin' the direction you'd like to see man go in isn't one I'd favor.
I can see and agree with logic from various platforms. At the same time, I cannot help but recognize the archaic, short-sighted, hateful, selfish, and ego-driven agendas from ANY platforms. I also cannot defend or pretend not to see the outrageous insanity and dishonesty being bellowed across the land. Personally, I would like to see five political parties, ALL EQUAL, held to exactly the same operating standards, and maintaining a balance of power in governing... to guard against the kind of toxic and twisted government we seem immobilized by. If the constitution is preserving that model, then it needs to evolve too (in my opinion). Our civilization wouldn't get anywhere if we refused to move on from OLD DATA! :D

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Re: Re:

Post by bobevenson » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:11 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:06 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:53 pm
Yeah, I know, Bob...she ignored everything I wrote, fixating on *'democracy', and then throwin' in an insult to top it off.

Like I said: no serious rebuttal.
I just don't happen to consider coal-burning, pussy-grabbing, bible-thumping people very progressive (translation: liberal, left-wing socialist). How do we know when that stops making sense in humankind's (translation: as spoken by a liberal, left-wing socialist) evolution?

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Lacewing
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Re: Re:

Post by Lacewing » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:52 pm

bobevenson in red wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:11 pm
I just don't happen to consider coal-burning, pussy-grabbing, bible-thumping people very progressive (translation: liberal, left-wing socialist). How do we know when that stops making sense in humankind's (translation: as spoken by a liberal, left-wing socialist) evolution?
Translation of Bob's blab: Unable to think outside of archaic labels and notions. "DUH... me divine prophet, you liberal left-wing socialist." Neither of which mean anything truthful.

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