~ The Birth of Catalan ~

How should society be organised, if at all?

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bobevenson
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Re: Re:

Post by bobevenson » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:22 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:52 pm
bobevenson in red wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:11 pm
I just don't happen to consider coal-burning, pussy-grabbing, bible-thumping people very progressive (translation: liberal, left-wing socialist). How do we know when that stops making sense in humankind's (translation: as spoken by a liberal, left-wing socialist) evolution?
Translation of Bob's blab: Unable to think outside of archaic labels and notions. "DUH... me divine prophet, you liberal left-wing socialist." Neither of which mean anything truthful.
You wouldn't recognize the truth if it bit you in the butt!

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:31 pm

"I would like to see five political parties"

Me, I'd like to see political partys go extinct.

I wanna hire folks cuz they're the best for the job, not cuz they fit themselves into a box.

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Re:

Post by bobevenson » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:48 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:31 pm
a) I'd like to see political partys go extinct.
b) I wanna hire folks cuz they're the best for the job, not cuz they fit themselves into a box.
a) I believe the AEP can accomplish your first point.
b) The AEP would protect your second point, and go even further. You should be able to hire whomever you want for any reason and pay him whatever you both agree upon.

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Lacewing
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Re:

Post by Lacewing » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:25 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:31 pm
Me, I'd like to see political partys go extinct.

I wanna hire folks cuz they're the best for the job, not cuz they fit themselves into a box.
Who decides and who gets to hire? Do you think everyone is going to agree on such decisions? It's not about being fit into a box... it's about representation of varied viewpoints.

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Re: Re:

Post by bobevenson » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:55 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:25 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:31 pm
Me, I'd like to see political partys go extinct.

I wanna hire folks cuz they're the best for the job, not cuz they fit themselves into a box.
Who decides and who gets to hire?
The employer is king and should be able to hire whomever he wants or not hire whomever he wants.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:29 pm

In context, when I talk about hirin' folks, I'm talkin' about electin' folks...that is: i wanna elect folks, hire 'em, cuz they're best for the job, not cuz they tailor themselves, their words, their presentation, to fit into a box (repub, dem, etc.).

And -- again -- America is NOT a representative democracy...it wasn't set up to be one and the only way it's gonna be one is toss the constitution and write another...locally, in towns, and cities (and to a lesser degree on the state level) constrained democratic process is important, but nationally democratic process is reduced to parlimentary procedure cuz much of what elected folks can and can't do is (supposed to be) constitutionally established..in many ways, the federal-level executive, legislative, and judical groups are supposed to be the least powerful folks in the country...that president, congress, and supreme court have become so prominent, so powerful, is a sure indicator of how far the U.S. has gone off course.

More generally: Bob is absolutely right...if I'm a business owner, an employer, I (should) get to hire (and fire) based on my criteria, not the criteria of busy-bodies who can't mind their own goddamned business...and 'fair compensation' is a matter between profit-minded employer and profit-minded employee...those busy-bodies ought to butt out.

I self-employ so every client of mine only becomes a client of mine after we negotiate the contract (what the client wants vs what I'm willing or able to do; the monetary value the client ascribes to me vs the value I ascribe to myself)...it's a wholly honest and direct way to transact, a model that should extend into employer/employee transactions.

Lastly, Bob, as I said to you before: you get the AEP up and running and I'll give it a serious look-see.

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Arising_uk
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Re:

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:09 pm

henry quirk wrote:...
Lastly, Bob, as I said to you before: you get the AEP up and running and I'll give it a serious look-see.
:lol: I wouldn't be holding your breath for this one HQ.

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Lacewing
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Re:

Post by Lacewing » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:54 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:29 pm
In context, when I talk about hirin' folks, I'm talkin' about electin' folks...that is: i wanna elect folks, hire 'em, cuz they're best for the job, not cuz they tailor themselves, their words, their presentation, to fit into a box (repub, dem, etc.).
Right. That's what I took you to mean. Bob took it another way. Of course an employer should hire who they want... and do business with who they want. See, I'm not locked into liberal views. I think about what makes sense, as I see it, for each circumstance. I do NOT like laws for every little thing, and I do think a lot of people are a drain on the system -- they should be tasked in some way appropriate for their circumstances to help offset the cost they add to the system.

When it comes to voting (for people and for processes), how can you do that if you have no groupings of ideas and representatives (as you suggest)? That's the question I was putting to you, Henry.
Last edited by Lacewing on Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:54 pm

I ain't holdin' my breath but I am keepin' an eye open cuz you never know what tomorrow is gonna bring.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:07 pm

Lace, if I come to you sayin' I'm a self-directing, self-responsible person who believes you are too and I'd like your vote not cuz I wanna take care of you but cuz I wanna make it so you can take care of yourself with a minimal of interference, why must my pitch get shoved into a category, or a party, or a philosophy? Aside from the financial constraints of running without party backing, why should 'I' be "pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered"?

I call myself 'libertarian' cuz 'self-directing, self-responsible man' is cumbersome, not cuz I'm aligned with a party or philosophy.

Mebbe instead of callin' myself 'libertarian' I should just call myself 'Henry'.

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Lacewing
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Re:

Post by Lacewing » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:55 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:07 pm
why must my pitch get shoved into a category, or a party, or a philosophy... /...why should 'I' be "pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered
It sounds like you have extreme resistance to structures and labeling. :) I can relate... but we have to be realistic somewhat, about this world we are ALL sharing, don't we? I don't like all of the classifications either, but it's good to keep a balanced perspective: Identifiers help people know what they can relate to. I'm not suggesting that you sell your soul to a label! I'm asking you how you think people are supposed to vote, in all of their varied ways, and accomplish anything working together as "groups", if there isn't SOMETHING that identifies the common goals/mindsets?

So, can you explain how you realistically think your scenario of "no affiliations or categories" would work in managing a country? Or can you only fathom pointing your gun at everybody and declaring your own independence?

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PauloL
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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by PauloL » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:46 am

Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:23 pm
.




Bill:

The origin of Catalan's (best Catalonia) birth is people's will.

EU is schizophrenic. When people manifested in Ukraine they called that "DIRECT DEMOCRACY".

But in Spain, they call it "THREAT TO DEMOCRACY".

As I told you, people's will is the only origin.

The same people's will that gave birth to Portugal in 1147, the only province under the rule of Castile that could get independent so far.




.

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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:19 am

PauloL wrote:...
EU is schizophrenic. When people manifested in Ukraine they called that "DIRECT DEMOCRACY". ...
" Ukraine endured years of corruption, mismanagement, lack of economic growth, currency devaluation, and problems to secure funding from public markets" does this reflect Catalonia?
But in Spain, they call it "THREAT TO DEMOCRACY".
Do you call a 40% turnout reflecting Democracy?

The Spanish government is handling this badly but then they are pretty new to this stuff.
As I told you, people's will is the only origin.
A minority's apparently.
The same people's will that gave birth to Portugal in 1147, the only province under the rule of Castile that could get independent so far.
I'd have thought that some in the EU will be very happy with the idea of a Europe of Regions with the EU as the govt.

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PauloL
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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by PauloL » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:09 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:19 am
Isn't there corruption in your country? I concede it can be much less than Ukraine, of course, but I won't judge how legitimate is your government from corruption, but from established order, like Constitution.

Ukraine has a Constitution, and a legitimate President elected at the time.

You have lots of turnaround below 50% in democratic countries. You even have absolute majorities with turnarounds of 40%.

But this is about Catalonia versus Spain. Like British North America versus GB. How legitimate was their independence within British order? The only legitimacy was people's will, but this couldn't be recognized by GB.

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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:42 pm

PauloL wrote: Isn't there corruption in your country? ...
Very little in world comparison I think.
I concede it can be much less than Ukraine, of course, but I won't judge how legitimate is your government from corruption, but from established order, like Constitution. ...
We don't have a written constitution.
Ukraine has a Constitution, and a legitimate President elected at the time.
And what will happen if a region of Ukraine decides to leave?
You have lots of turnaround below 50% in democratic countries. You even have absolute majorities with turnarounds of 40%.
More fool them.
But this is about Catalonia versus Spain. Like British North America versus GB. How legitimate was their independence within British order? The only legitimacy was people's will, but this couldn't be recognized by GB.
I don't disagree PauloL.

The Spanish government has handled this very badly but the Catalan separatists can claim no democratic mandate from the people in this case. Of course they can do what they are doing and that is to try and polarise the situation so that nationalist feeling takes to the fore in the face of Spanish intransigence but as far as I'm aware they haven't been exactly lobbying over the past few years in Parliament for changes to the constitution, something I'm sure the other regions would probably have supported?

What is interesting is how the EU is going to deal with this as there are many regions who wish to separate in the member states and it is feasible to have an EU of regions but those 'nation/regions' will have to be giving-up just as much if not more autonomy if they wish to be part of the EU but if it goes this way it does remind me of the Hapsburg Empire and look what happened to that.

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