~ The Birth of Catalan ~

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Bill Wiltrack
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~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:23 pm

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The birth of the new country, Catalan, represents a huge step towards a more representative Democracy for the people of Spain.

A huge step towards freedom and a birth of a new republic.


?Why aren't the surrounding countries of the European Union embracing a more Democratic and a more free people?







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?Where & why has the need for this birth arisen?



?Could this new found thirst for freedom & closer representation be contagious?



? Is this a new found thirst for philosophical & political freedom? If this is the case, Catalonia is good not only for Catalan but, philosophically, for you & I. - Yes?











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EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:49 pm

They would enter rapidly into a civil war if they tried for independence, very first of all with police forces. How much of their local security force is on board in every unit to attack Spanish troops? Likely very few, as this will attract the harder elements of Spain's police in, as well as military, in to smash these rebel units. The amount of time Catalonia would have to organize a national army and drive the enemy out would be in the area of hours at best, minutes in the cities.

Didn't work the last few times they tried this.

Catalan was a autonomous marche (frontier zone) under the Charlegmagne, and has had various forms of government since governing it. Spain was never a solid coalition. I recommend looking up what happened to Spain during the Spanish Civil War, and then under Franco, and what Spain did when the Basque tried to break away.

The Spanish state is incredibly weak and imbecile, nearly went to war with the US when a Spanish judge tried to put George Bush on trial under the concept of the ICC (we 100% would of bombed the living daylights out of those morons, the US isn't the vassal state of Spain or Europe), gave human rights to chimps, demanded everyone use solar energy and then banned it effectively by overtaxing people using solar energy cause it was hurting the power plants, claims to have hyper enlightened governments and council of sages running the show, but it is just a bunch of home grown socialist morons who keep the unemployment rate ridiculously high..... in Iraq they were absolutely worthless pieces of shut who aided the enemy from inactivity than helped the coalition.... but if there is one thing the Spanish state can do somewhat competently.... it is remembering how to massacre it's own people. They have a long history of this, fresh in many's memories, won't hesitate to spill blood. Nice little banana republic nestled away in the corner of Europe.

Catalan, the land of the philosopher Ramon Llull, as much as I was to see free, won't be free, because the average Catalonian youth isn't going to come out in enough force to fight back. Europe is certainly overflowing with enough arms, that arming them wouldn't be a problem. Just I don't see them doing it in enough numbers to really intimidate the Spanish government. I'm sure a few symbolic hits will occur by a few groups, but it will be just that. Only reason the US had manage to gain independence is because it took forever for the British to resupply troops, and so we could take advantage of that time, evading in absolutely massive space perfect for guerilla resistance (try fighting a war marching from New York City to the backside of Virginia and Ohio and then into South Carolina, British couldn't pull it off in that era short of having near universal local support, they had half at best in areas, increasingly less). Catalonia can't mass the manpower fast enough, or turn opinion. Yes, public opinion will turn against the crown as the region losses more and more autonomy, but a overwhelming majority of soft as fuck EU youths living in the area simply put will not really want to risk their lives, much less shoot at someone else and watch they flail around screaming as blood and internal organs drops out of them, just because they have their own language and traditions. If they don't like Spain that much, they merely gotta move elsewhere. That's going to be a conclusion of a lot of radicals in the end, they will move to Germany or Netherlands, write piss blogs, or emigrate to South America, and the Spanish government knows this and will be looking at sites on the net, figuring out who wants to be the next couple revolutionary philosophers. Fine balance between determining they are utterly off the wall and incompetent or someone you gotta take care of early on.

That's how the government will deal with his, and the youth. A lot of silly massive protests, about as effective as Occupy Wallstreet will undoubtedly occur. Jumbo jumbo about students, solidarity, socialism.... you'll see the teenagers holding their firsts and arms up in the air, with a banner..... don't get excited, means it is actually dying off, not inflaming. Peeked too damn soon, a premature ejaculation of rage. You gotta time this stuff just right, and I don't think they can do it. Just positioning and looking cool to attract support for some future, distant Iron Heel (Jack London book) like uprising. Not worth anyone's time today, and suspect a considerable portion of the Catalonian vote wasn't from a desire to stay with Spain, but a realization they wouldn't pull it off with the current youth population. Hey utterly lack in the ability to quickly moralize and fight. If they tried, it would be over quick. No far observing thinker is going to support this.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:09 pm

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BARCELONA — Spain on Saturday began to assert control over Catalonia, sacking the Catalan president, his ministers, diplomats, police chiefs and transferring all authority to the central government in Madrid.

But it was an open question who was really in charge of the breakaway region in the hours after a divided Catalan parliament declared independence.

Catalonia’s secessionist president did not appear in public, but issued a prerecorded call for citizens to mount “a democratic opposition” to the takeover.



One exception was a bland 3-minute, prerecorded statement by the ousted president, Carles Puigdemont, which aired on the region’s public broadcaster.

Puigdement said the people should continue to defend their new republic peacefully and “with a sense of civic responsibility.” He decried Spain’s takeover and called it “a premeditated attack on the majority will of Catalans.”

But he offered nothing about what comes next.

The night before, Puigdemont tweeted: “Catalonia is and will be a land of freedom. At the service of people. In the difficult moments and at the moments of celebration. Now more than ever.”





...sounds more like people looking to obtain a bit more Democracy & individual freedom to me..?





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EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:08 pm

Yeah, but you are also openly attracted to the Fascism of Aleksandr Dugin, which is mostly supported by gibberish ideas on his website (not all Fascists base their ideas on gibberish, so don't know why this is the case in Russia), so I'm seriously doubting you can detect when democracy and Freedom spikes or deflates. In Spain, it is all around deflating for all sides. Nobody is gaining "more freedom" out of this, anywhere in Spain, not even supporters of the central government. And I don't know how the hell you can say more Democracy when the Spanish government is predictably forced to suspend as much autonomy as it can. Now the Spanish state has to be a Dick to Catalonia, and Catalonia has to be a Dick to Spain, EU has to be a Dick to Catalonia, to Scotland, and any other place that wants to go, and the US has to reinforce it's old union civil war doctrine that states don't have the right to succeed by staying consistent in case California ever tried to bolt..... so more or less under international law, we've just seen the idea of national self determination die. Same likely for the Kurds, though having a military already in place in both Kurdish Syria and Iraq will help them.

We've just seem a massive global wide collapse of freedoms and democracy, and nations states not even involved have mostly been forced to throw in the cards.

Only places your likely to see any general irrelevance to this is basket case nations like Canada who deep down inside don't really care if Prince Edwards Islamd or Alberta breaks away or not, cause nothing will change in relation to being a powerless rump state attached to America.... you gotta go to these politically isolated/insulated countries who just don't do much internationally, don't care about their own future, cause they think they are just going to be around forever untouched cause the world likes them cause they are just a swell people..... instead of the truth, because they are as isolated as Iceland or already a vassal state to a larger power like Bhutan, or absolutely like to play pretend like Sweden.... for countries that are going to have a realistic shot of a majority coming out to support Catalan. This being said, they won't likely do it, cause these very countries don't really give a damn about the rest of the world, as they are too self obsessed and know all they can do is offer token symbolic gestures. So yeah.... Canada, Qatar, Iceland, Maldives, Burundi might come out to support Catalan for shits and giggles, but most everyone else is going to support Spain at least officially.

My preference is a independent Catalonia. Not happening, but that's my preference.

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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:52 pm

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Don't know if this thirst for freedom, Democracy, & better representation will be quenched for the emerging Catalanians but from all that I have read this is all about the expansion of individual freedoms, liberty, & expansion of Democracy for the recently formed Catalan.

I see nothing in relation to socialism, fascism, or the political philosophies of Aleksandr Dugin.


To each their own. I believe we can both agree - VIVA DEMOCRACY!







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.........................................................................................FREEDOM!










..............................................................................................LIVE FEED




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EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:23 pm

No, I put wise statecraft and good stragetic foresight well ahead of blind dances of enthusiasm for any particular stage of the kyklos cycle. Any mode of government can ruin itself if it is stupid and impulsive, but a wise people can handle just about any mode of government. My presence is for a Democratic Republic, but as we saw under Obama, it could turn violent, bloody, hate driven and cruel. Why the people turned against it with a utter contempt for it in the end.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyklos

Catalan is at best hoping this is goo to get ingot, with clashes that can destabilize Spain enough, with other regions getting worried, as well as the EU, that it will have no choice but to negotiate something over and beyond the status quo of before. They couldn't exactly vote for independence and then not take it up, the movement be cursed from that point out with people asking why they didn't just bother to do it.

Why aren't you this excited about the Peshmerga declaring independence? They have a far more legitimate gripe along the lines you celebrate. Catalonia outside of Spain won't be much better off than inside it, Euro-Doctrine will force both Spain and Catalonia to evolve along parallel lines, and the nationality for both will die off, as both become mere provinces of the EU, much like Ohio and Indiana are states and not nations. Could I begin to give a fuck if Indiana split in half if they were both still under the federal government? Most I hope for in a free Catalonia is that it will shake the Spanish government into massive reform, booting the liberals out and paying greater attention to the needs of the people. They got very lazy, didn't much pay attention the last few years, became a international joke. Be really good for them if they focused more on becoming competent and reasonable, and stopped drinking the koolaid. A real country wouldn't of done half the silly shit that they've inflicted upon themselves. I understand the interest people have in fleeing that.... but are they really in a position to be much better? No, they want desperately to remain in the EU, and this means getting dumber and dumber as a province of a larger federal entity based out of Brussels instead of Brussels and Madrid. I'm not exactly inspired by this long term strategy. Will Catalan join NATO? What, get a medical unit and coast guard cutter out of it? Blah....

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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:27 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:The birth of the new country, Catalan, represents a huge step towards a more representative Democracy for the people of Spain. ...
:lol: Do you read what you write or is it that you don't understand what you write?
A huge step towards freedom and a birth of a new republic.
You think the Catalonians will be joining such a thing?
?Why aren't the surrounding countries of the European Union embracing a more Democratic and a more free people?
Well firstly because it's not been arrived at by a democratic mandate, it's really an attempt at a coup d'état by the nationalists as the odds are that if the Spanish government had been sensible and agreed to an official referendum the vote would have gone against the nationalists like it did in Scotland.

But behind the scenes I can imagine some fervent federalists in favour of this as there is an idea of a Europe of the regions but many others will be not so happy as their countries also have regions who might like to split from their nation.
?Where & why has the need for this birth arisen?
There is no real need. Catalan has been doing very well as part of Spain in the EU.
Most of this is historical and has been fostered and fed by the nationalists promoting a fictitious and spurious sense of victimhood and 'oppression'.
?Could this new found thirst for freedom & closer representation be contagious?
They have freedom and representation.
? Is this a new found thirst for philosophical & political freedom? If this is the case, Catalonia is good not only for Catalan but, philosophically, for you & I. - Yes?[/size]
Not really, its the rise of petty regional nationalism and that never bodes well in Europe. Still, it may head the EU to a league of regions but more than likely it'll lead to the break-up of the EU as many nations will not accept the break-up of their nations.

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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:44 pm

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Hopefully, this current thrust for freedom, Democracy, & better representation will be quenched for the emerging Catalanians! From all that I have read this is all about the expansion of individual freedoms, liberty, & expansion of Democracy for the recently formed Catalan.

I see nothing in relation to socialism, fascism, or the political philosophies of Aleksandr Dugin.


To each their own. I believe we can both agree - VIVA DEMOCRACY!







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*There is an outside chance that if Catalan is successfully formed they may be the first country to issue their base currency upon a blockchain!!!





...................................................................................!VIVA FREEDOM!









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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:57 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote: Hopefully, this current thrust for freedom, Democracy, & better representation will be quenched for the emerging Catalanians! From all that I have read this is all about the expansion of individual freedoms, liberty, & expansion of Democracy for the recently formed Catalan. ...
Ok, then tell us what better representation it is that they want than what they've got already?
I see nothing in relation to socialism, fascism, or the political philosophies of Aleksandr Dugin. ...
:lol:
To each their own. I believe we can both agree - VIVA DEMOCRACY!
Except this 'independence', if achieved, will not have been done with a democratic mandate will it.
*There is an outside chance that if Catalan is successfully formed they may be the first country to issue their base currency upon a blockchain!!!
:lol: Then they'll be the quickest bankruptcy in history.

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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:09 pm

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Just,..throwin this out here but...don't cha think that if they were happy with the representation they currently enjoy they would'nt be risking their lives in protest right now?


...just let that sink in...







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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:44 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:Just,..throwin this out here but...don't cha think that if they were happy with the representation they currently enjoy they would'nt be risking their lives in protest right now?
No-one is 'risking their lives'. :roll:

Unless it's skipped your notice Spain is a democracy and Catalonia has the same, and even more in some cases, freedoms as all the other regions under the constitution that they signed-up for.
...just let that sink in...
I know that nothing will sink into your brain but try very hard to understand that the Catalan nationalists in Govt held an illegal referendum under the constitution they signed-up for, that only 40% of the population turned up to vote in it and yet they still declared a majority were in favour of independence. Now the Spanish government has reacted stupidly to this event as they should have said, 'sure, you can have your referendum' and then set the usual levels for such a thing to hold, X% turn-out, X% to be accepted, etc and odds are that they would have voted to stay but the Spanish government is relatively new to this Democracy stuff and old habits die-hard, not least because Franco did try to set-up a system to ensure his vision would hold after his demise but to claim that the Catalans are chaffing under some kind of oppression is laughable. What is even funnier is that if they do attain independence and, even more unlikely, manage to stay in the EU then they will lose more of their regional freedoms and regional identity than they have now as the EU will want a say in their economic governance. If they get independence and have to leave the EU then they are likely to be in a whole heap of economic trouble compared to the unfettered access to the EU single market that they have now.
p.s.
Although there might be a case for revising the constitution as it applies to the regions as it was written in '78 and things have changed.

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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by bobevenson » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:36 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:52 pm
To each their own. I believe we can both agree - VIVA DEMOCRACY!
“Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There was never a democracy that did not commit suicide.”–John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:00 pm

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...do you think that is what is happening in America?






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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by bobevenson » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:03 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:00 pm
Do you think that is what is happening in America?
It hasn't pulled the trigger yet.

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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ The Birth of Catalan ~

Post by Arising_uk » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:21 am

Bill Wiltrack wrote:...do you think that is what is happening in America?
According to HQ America is not a democracy in the first place as it is a Republic but I suppose that depends if you think a representative democratic system is as democratic as a direct democracy when talking about there being an 'America'.

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