In defense of colonism

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Arising_uk
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:24 pm

Seleucus wrote:As you like. The question in the middle of the last page was how did the English progress from barbarism to the apex of civilization? It was through successive waves of colonization originating in the Near East and Mediterranean.
But that's the point isn't it colonization whereas what you and the article are talking about is mainly Imperialism and like the Romans left bugger all that wasn't pretty much already there when they left, apart from the resources mind.

Londoner
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Londoner » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:11 pm

Seleucus wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:14 pm
So, was Britain robbing India, or was it over-spending on India? Looks like you're covering all bases.
I do not see how you got that from what I wrote.

I'm saying that Britain exploited India by running the economy in such a way that it benefited Britain, not India. When that ceased to be possible they withdrew.

Londoner
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Londoner » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:45 pm

Seleucus wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:00 pm
As you like. The question in the middle of the last page was how did the English progress from barbarism to the apex of civilization? It was through successive waves of colonization originating in the Near East and Mediterranean.
It depends what you count as 'colonisation'. At one end it can be just a change in the governing class, barely noticed by the ordinary person. At another it can be genocide.

And is all colonization supposed to be beneficial? People certainly did not think so at the time. After the Romans withdrew, under the next wave of invaders British society went backwards. People lived amongst the ruins of buildings that they were no longer capable of constructing. And what about the Mongol invasion of China or the Tartar domination of Russia? It would be hard to argue these represented progress.

And whose civilisation? Rome was certainly civilised in the sense of having specialised industries, cities, an efficient army and so on - but if your role in that society was as a slave you might have prefered less civilisation and more personal freedom. It is doubtful if any 'uncivilized' people have ever became 'civilized' voluntarily.

So we need some clarity about what is being claimed here.

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Arising_uk
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:12 pm

Londoner wrote:...
So we need some clarity about what is being claimed here.
Unlikely tho' as it's fairly clear what his agenda is.

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Seleucus
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:31 am

Londoner wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:45 pm
you might have prefered less civilisation and more personal freedom.
I'm not Luddite myself. I agree that there may have been golden ages in the most ancient past, the Vedic homeland in the north, Thule, the Hyperboreans? But that was probably the exception as we know from anthropological remains, more common was brawling with baboon to get at a stinking slimy water hole.
It is doubtful if any 'uncivilized' people have ever became 'civilized' voluntarily.
I couldn't agree more. It takes a tremendous and terrible amount of violence. As Nietzsche wrote in Beyond Good and Evil, “almost everything that we call "higher culture" is based upon the…intensifying of cruelty” (§229).
Last edited by Seleucus on Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Seleucus
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:40 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:24 pm
apart from the resources mind.
Yes, nothing could be more true. The important difference between 3rd World people and civilized people is cognitive structures. This is why Korea or Germany could rebuild in a generation and why Indonesia and Nigeria are stagnating. An important point to consider with regards to Aboriginals and Red Indians, it isn't a matter of making material improvement to Indian Reservations, the savages will ruin any nice things they are given, the important thing is to figure out how to develop the minds.

An example of engineering minds from China,

"Every single ethnic Uyghur must hand in any Islam-related items from their own home, including Qurans, prayers and anything else bearing the symbols of religion …the Chinese government has severely restricted the practice of Islam throughout the state—from banning Muslim names like Muhammad” and “Arafat” to forcing shops to sell haram items such as cigarettes and alcohol—and promoted “ethnic unity” campaigns meant to dilute Uighur identity by promoting intermarriage and imposing Mandarin over the Uighur language.

Londoner
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Londoner » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:15 am

Seleucus wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:40 am
Yes, nothing could be more true. The important difference between 3rd World people and civilized people is cognitive structures. This is why Korea or Germany could rebuild in a generation and why Indonesia and Nigeria are stagnating.
So how do you explain the difference between North and South Korea? Did the cognitive structures within Korea suddenly diverge, around 1950?

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Seleucus
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:15 am

Londoner wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:15 am
Seleucus wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:40 am
Yes, nothing could be more true. The important difference between 3rd World people and civilized people is cognitive structures. This is why Korea or Germany could rebuild in a generation and why Indonesia and Nigeria are stagnating.
So how do you explain the difference between North and South Korea? Did the cognitive structures within Korea suddenly diverge, around 1950?
Explain what? Both are highly sophisticated advanced societies?

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Seleucus
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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Seleucus » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:25 am

Reading Raffle's History of Java, Vol I last night I see that Raffles identifies the point between 1724 and and 1730 as when Dutch colonization crossed the line from profitable to an expense. As the Dutch took on more governmental responsibility over territory and its population the cost of investment and development came to dwarf the value extracted from the colonies.

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Re: In defense of colonism

Post by Science Fan » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:54 pm

I haven't managed to read through this entire thread, but the OP was, as far as I can tell, simply advocating racism. We know colonialism was a bad idea, as Nazi Germany attempted to restore its colonies by colonizing the countries to the east of Germany. How well did that work out?

The USA shoved off its colonial status and became a world super power, so what does that tell us about the benefits of colonial rule?

Tell the Irish how beneficial colonialism is.

Colonialism is simply a word used to justify enslaving others based on a delusional claim that the people being enslaved are inferior. The irony is that the people who believe in such nonsense amply show that their own intellectual abilities are far from superior.

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