~ So...Is it Helpful to Say... ~

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ So...Is it Helpful to Say... ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:01 pm

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Can't fault the police. They were in an extremely difficult position.


Thought they did a remarkable job.



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Walker
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Re: ~ So...Is it Helpful to Say... ~

Post by Walker » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:26 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:01 pm
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Can't fault the police. They were in an extremely difficult position.


Thought they did a remarkable job.



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Most of them made it home safe. I read there was a tragic helicopter crash that took the lives of two officers. Sincere condolences to their families.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ So...Is it Helpful to Say... ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:29 pm

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Amen...



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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ So...Is it Helpful to Say... ~

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:43 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:01 pm
Can't fault the police. They were in an extremely difficult position.

Thought they did a remarkable job..
Remarkably incompetent from what we saw over here. As over here those carrying what were effectively clubs to a demonstration would have all been arrested right from the start or at they very least handing over the weapons.

uwot
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Re: ~ So...Is it Helpful to Say... ~

Post by uwot » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:04 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:43 pm
Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:01 pm
Can't fault the police. They were in an extremely difficult position.

Thought they did a remarkable job..
Remarkably incompetent from what we saw over here. As over here those carrying what were effectively clubs to a demonstration would have all been arrested right from the start or at they very least handing over the weapons.
Second Amendment. Just doing their job.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ So...Is it Helpful to Say... ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:19 pm

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Yeah, actually some of the Nazis were carrying long guns. Don't know if they were loaded...the guns that is.



The police did an excellent job.

Shame two of them died.



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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ So...Is it Helpful to Say... ~

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:28 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:19 pm
Yeah, actually some of the Nazis were carrying long guns. Don't know if they were loaded...the guns that is. ...
:lol: What a third world country.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: ~ So...Is it Helpful to Say... ~

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:35 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:27 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:I would say far worse things than that has been committed under the banner of Black Lives Matter. ...
Such as?
How about the 2016 shooting of Dallas police officers? Admittedly, the protests don't usually end in deadly causalities, but lesser injuries and 10,000s of dollars worth in vandalism. Although somehow I have a feeling you wouldn't be satisfied with whatever example I were to give you. Maybe not.
From an outsiders position it looks pretty minor compared to your police killings and mass shootings.
Comparatively, I agree. I just don't want you to get the wrong impression that I'm defending the radical right-wingers in charlottesville.
You haven't actually clarified anything here?

Can I assume then that you would not considered such things terrorism if done by an American Muslim? After all the franchise model of terrorism learnt by Bin Laden through his experiences with the American govt and the CIA is exactly designed to produce these types of killings.
I think you missed my point if you don't see how I clarified anything; again I don't wish to conflate 'terrorism' with 'terrorist'. If the American Muslim has direct ties to ISIS or another terror organization, he's a terrorist. I would say someone like the Orlando shooter is not, because he had no real association but merely sympathized with them. I think there needs to be a single word that we can use to reasonable differentiate the members of a terror group from examples of domestic terrorism.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ So...Is it Helpful to Say... ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:23 pm

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I think that we all agree that the shooter on August 12, 2017 can be titled, RADICAL CHRISTIAN TERRORIST or RADICAL REPUBLICAN TERRORIST.


* Keep in mind that about 6 CHILDREN were shot in America that day along with about 141 overdoses across the United States.



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Re: ~ So...Is it Helpful to Say... ~

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:22 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:How about the 2016 shooting of Dallas police officers? ...
Never heard of it. So a quick google shows that was ex-military, was apparently disturbed and had not been that happy about the amount of police killings and brutality towards black Americans for quite a while. Apparently he also said he acted alone and with no group but from the looks of it was following a whole bunch of radical black nationalist groups who you could blame I guess, as such I think your link to the Black Lives Matter movement pretty tenous.
Admittedly, the protests don't usually end in deadly causalities, but lesser injuries and 10,000s of dollars worth in vandalism. Although somehow I have a feeling you wouldn't be satisfied with whatever example I were to give you. Maybe not. ...
No I'm fine with examples.
Comparatively, I agree. I just don't want you to get the wrong impression that I'm defending the radical right-wingers in charlottesville. ...
You are as you are trying to excuse them with comparison.
I think you missed my point if you don't see how I clarified anything; again I don't wish to conflate 'terrorism' with 'terrorist'. If the American Muslim has direct ties to ISIS or another terror organization, he's a terrorist. I would say someone like the Orlando shooter is not, because he had no real association but merely sympathized with them. I think there needs to be a single word that we can use to reasonable differentiate the members of a terror group from examples of domestic terrorism.
Fair enough but I think you're out of date as Bin Laden has redefined what terrorism and being a terrorist is all about nowadays as he took his example from the USA's and CIA's franchising out their military and counter-terrorist capabilities and applied it to his model of revolution, smart cookie there.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: ~ So...Is it Helpful to Say... ~

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:22 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:22 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:How about the 2016 shooting of Dallas police officers? ...
Never heard of it. So a quick google shows that was ex-military, was apparently disturbed and had not been that happy about the amount of police killings and brutality towards black Americans for quite a while. Apparently he also said he acted alone and with no group but from the looks of it was following a whole bunch of radical black nationalist groups who you could blame I guess, as such I think your link to the Black Lives Matter movement pretty tenous.
I'm not sure there are many shootings you could point to where you couldn't just scapegoat a pre-existing mental condition. I don't think it is all that tenuous, because this was a man who, by all accounts, supported BLM and was angry over the risen controversy of police shootings, which is also thanks to BLM. I could have listed off something like the Chicago torture, but that actually is more nuanced and I would probably agree with you that doesn't have any convincing ties to it.

The thing is, Black Lives Matter is a movement first and foremost, and not an organization with specific tenets. The prominent figures like Deray Mckesson don't just get to disown them and that's the end of it, which he never even did that in this case.
You are as you are trying to excuse them with comparison.
That's not my intention, which is that I don't want the media to excuse the other side. I want situations like this to be covered just as much. I'm not saying to not cover either one, I'm saying to cover both.
Fair enough but I think you're out of date as Bin Laden has redefined what terrorism and being a terrorist is all about nowadays as he took his example from the USA's and CIA's franchising out their military and counter-terrorist capabilities and applied it to his model of revolution, smart cookie there.
I think it's a very important definition to maintain due to the current climate

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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ So...Is it Helpful to Say... ~

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:36 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:I'm not sure there are many shootings you could point to where you couldn't just scapegoat a pre-existing mental condition. I don't think it is all that tenuous, because this was a man who, by all accounts, supported BLM and was angry over the risen controversy of police shootings, which is also thanks to BLM. ...
Not really as he appears to have been following much more radical black nationalist groups before BLM appeared. You appear to be saying that BLM shouldn't be raising the issue that your police appear to be killing your black citizens en masse because they are black?
...

That's not my intention, which is that I don't want the media to excuse the other side. I want situations like this to be covered just as much. I'm not saying to not cover either one, I'm saying to cover both. ...
I think your media should actually be discussing and covering the militarisation of your police force, along with your govt's abandonment of its military responsibilities and commitments by franchising out many aspects of war. Something that is now coming back to bite all of us.
I think it's a very important definition to maintain due to the current climate.
And I think it a fair point. Much like over here when we treated American funded IRA terrorists as criminals and not terrorists. Which is how we should have treated Bin Laden but your govt legitimised him with your 'War on Terror' and exacerbated the whole situation by destroying a couple of countries to boot.

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Re: ~ So...Is it Helpful to Say... ~

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:45 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:36 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:I'm not sure there are many shootings you could point to where you couldn't just scapegoat a pre-existing mental condition. I don't think it is all that tenuous, because this was a man who, by all accounts, supported BLM and was angry over the risen controversy of police shootings, which is also thanks to BLM. ...
Not really as he appears to have been following much more radical black nationalist groups before BLM appeared. You appear to be saying that BLM shouldn't be raising the issue that your police appear to be killing your black citizens en masse because they are black?
It happened during the protest of Alton Sterling in pretty explicit dedication of it, which was also a big deal thanks to BLM, so I'm more confident to say it has its share to blame.

While I don't mind if they're raising the issue for discussion, I'm not personally convinced there's a problem of racism within our police force. The studies and actual numbers that I've looked into suggest against that. Although this is going off on a bit of a tangent since it doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm arguing here, unless you'd like to get into that.
I think your media should actually be discussing and covering the militarisation of your police force, along with your govt's abandonment of its military responsibilities and commitments by franchising out many aspects of war. Something that is now coming back to bite all of us.
I agree with you police in the US are too involved in our lives, mostly because of the laws that are in place, but I don't think it's a problem only or even more so to people of color.

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