We're not at war with Islam?

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Boca
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Boca » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:10 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:00 am

Sure but if we're not interested in you ruling the world and living under your laws, what then?
you don't have to live under our laws, you have your laws we have ours. We simply draw border lines and keep the distance between us. Trump is good president in a sense he's conservative and doesn't impose western lifestyle on others. Caliphate/Sharia Law in Middle East is none of your business

Boca
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Boca » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:21 am

Belinda wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:03 am

I suppose that Muhammad was clever enough to claim 'Spiritual' authority for his modernisation programme against the old Arabian paganism with its primitive vendetta system of justice.

I wonder if Boca knows much about Islamic theory and history. Muhammad was a real person, you know. He was not some magician who could fly and talk to an angel.
Muhammad(pbuh) didn't invent Islam, He revived the original religion of his forefather Abraham and Ismael. far before Muhammad Islam was already there in Arabia under the authority of Abraham and Ismael.
Being a Real person is not an obstacle on His way to be taken up to heaven and talk to Angel, unless you're veiled by the curse of materialism, these are all Real Events.

Boca
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Boca » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:29 am

Belinda wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:38 am

But Islam is not democratic. Because it's not democratic Islam , with its insistence upon the infallibility of the Holy Book, can be hi-jacked by dictators in countries where Islam is the only permitted creed.

How can a man be free to love God if he is forced to submit?

Submission to God is absolute and does not include idolatry of any holy book, or any human prophet.
what makes you think so. Islam is indeed democratic. You can and should freely study Qur'an and feel God for yourself. Qur'an and Prophet cannot be Hi-jacked by anyone, if people have enough knowledge and understanding of them. Easy to fool the ignorant, but impossible to fool the knowledgeable ones. Nobody ever says you to follow Islam blindly, Study Hard. as said in Qur'an, those who don't believe in God with certainty and strong evidences, will be led astray. Also You need to be Optimistic about Islam, if you want guidance from God.

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Arising_uk
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:11 am

Boca wrote:you don't have to live under our laws, you have your laws we have ours. We simply draw border lines and keep the distance between us. ...
But you want to rule the world under your laws?
Trump is good president in a sense he's conservative and doesn't impose western lifestyle on others. ...
Well apart from destroying ISIS.
Caliphate/Sharia Law in Middle East is none of your business
And when it is slaughtering, raping and enslaving Christians?

Belinda
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Belinda » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:06 pm

Boca objected to and denied the following from me:

Islam , with its insistence upon the infallibility of the Holy Book, can be hi-jacked by dictators in countries where Islam is the only permitted creed.
Islam has indeed become politicised in dictatorial regimes in the ME and Indonesia. You have not commented upon ijtihad but have parroted a polemical formula in which you confuse history and faith. There was a time long ago when Islam was intellectually honest. Some Muslims still are intellectually honest.

I do wish that some Muslim who has not been indoctrinated would join the conversation. Boca does not even know what indoctrination is.

bobevenson
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by bobevenson » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:01 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:37 am
Boca wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:31 am
I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.(Revelation 6:2)
He went out conquering and to conquer? Isn't that a bit redundant? Sounds like the way Trump repeats words to try and make what he says sound more substantial.
bobevenson wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:57 pm
The rider on the white horse is the False Prophet, followed by war on the red horse, famine on the black horse and pestilence on the pale horse, O my brothers in tribulation!
No... OH BROTHER!

What color is pale? Did the author only know 3 colors? So the arrival of a false prophet (which you happen to be one of) is followed by war, famine, and pestilence, correct? That doesn't seem very profound. Naturally, dishonorable liars in high positions can bring about all sorts of destruction to humankind.

Seriously, what information does the book of Revelation provide that is helpful to us? Name anything that makes sense and isn't already obvious through basic observation and awareness. Anything at all.
Your left-wing, liberal, progressive use of the term "humankind" says it all, sister.

Boca
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Boca » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:20 pm

Belinda wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:06 pm


Islam has indeed become politicised in dictatorial regimes in the ME and Indonesia. You have not commented upon ijtihad but have parroted a polemical formula in which you confuse history and faith. There was a time long ago when Islam was intellectually honest. Some Muslims still are intellectually honest.

I do wish that some Muslim who has not been indoctrinated would join the conversation. Boca does not even know what indoctrination is.
in the most liberal sense, Qur'an encourages each Individual to study/learn islam with no bias or pressure. I've personally grown up in atheist post-soviet environment, neither my parents nor anyone had ever taught me Islam. But here I am, self educated, and demanding Kingdom of God, Caliphate/ Sharia in our traditionally muslim countries. How am I indoctrinated, please explain. Islam may be politicised for self interests, for example in Turkey, ,but that doesn't mean Islam is separate from politics. as I said Islam is Both the State and the Religion.
as for you inability to comprehend my words, that's because Our difference is upper dimensional, you non-muslim live in a parallel universe with completely different realities. You need a heart to comprehend Islam, not a brain

bobevenson
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by bobevenson » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:29 pm

Boca wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:20 pm
Islam is Both the State and the Religion.
Please refer me to a map showing this so-called State.

Boca
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Boca » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:30 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:11 am
Boca wrote:you don't have to live under our laws, you have your laws we have ours. We simply draw border lines and keep the distance between us. ...
But you want to rule the world under your laws?
Trump is good president in a sense he's conservative and doesn't impose western lifestyle on others. ...
Well apart from destroying ISIS.
Caliphate/Sharia Law in Middle East is none of your business
And when it is slaughtering, raping and enslaving Christians?

We want to rule Middle East, which is World's center, with Sharia Law, your countries are not our business. ISIS is civil war within Islam, it's not your war. The very fact that there're many christians and jews in muslim countries shows that Historic Caliphates were tolerant to them. in the last decades it's your West which is slaughterin raping and enslaving Muslims in Iraq, Afganistan, and elsewhere. Blinded by your bias

bobevenson
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by bobevenson » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:33 pm

Are you going to show me that map?

Belinda
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Belinda » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:52 pm

Boca wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:20 pm
Belinda wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:06 pm


Islam has indeed become politicised in dictatorial regimes in the ME and Indonesia. You have not commented upon ijtihad but have parroted a polemical formula in which you confuse history and faith. There was a time long ago when Islam was intellectually honest. Some Muslims still are intellectually honest.

I do wish that some Muslim who has not been indoctrinated would join the conversation. Boca does not even know what indoctrination is.
in the most liberal sense, Qur'an encourages each Individual to study/learn islam with no bias or pressure. I've personally grown up in atheist post-soviet environment, neither my parents nor anyone had ever taught me Islam. But here I am, self educated, and demanding Kingdom of God, Caliphate/ Sharia in our traditionally muslim countries. How am I indoctrinated, please explain. Islam may be politicised for self interests, for example in Turkey, ,but that doesn't mean Islam is separate from politics. as I said Islam is Both the State and the Religion.
as for you inability to comprehend my words, that's because Our difference is upper dimensional, you non-muslim live in a parallel universe with completely different realities. You need a heart to comprehend Islam, not a brain
I understand you, personally, a little more, thanks Boca. Did you read the link which I wrote about re-opening the gates of ijtihad? If so, did you understand it?

You need both a head and a heart to comprehend any serious religion. You say that you are self educated. All credit to you!
Please be aware that the sources you get your information from are all-important. To understand a religion you need a heart as you say. You need intellectual work too. You need to get your intellectual information from unbiased, respectable, academic sources.

During Soviet regime state control of information was very strictly censored. It's good that in Russia today people are once again permitted to be religious.

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Arising_uk
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:45 pm

Boca wrote:We want to rule Middle East, which is World's center, with Sharia Law, your countries are not our business. ...
Who's this 'we'? As I thought that the Islamic countries do rule with Sharia Law?

If our countries are not your business then how will you be ruling the world?
ISIS is civil war within Islam, it's not your war. ...
It's not a civil war but a sectarian war. About this, how is it possible for Muslim to kill Muslim as I thought it forbidden and if it's not then who are the real Muslims?
The very fact that there're many christians and jews in muslim countries shows that Historic Caliphates were tolerant to them. ...
And that this next one won't be. But you've not answered my question, should we allow Muslims to slaughter, rape and enslave Christians then?
in the last decades it's your West which is slaughterin raping and enslaving Muslims in Iraq, Afganistan, and elsewhere. ...
I agree the West has been slaughtering a lot of Muslims but I doubt the raping and enslaving as we leave that up to ISIS and the fundamentalist Muslims.
Blinded by your bias
No, I was very anti the ME 'wars' and thought overthrowing the last secular govts a stupid thing to do but hey you should be allowed to do as you wish in your countries but what I do want to know from you what will you do if I don't want to join your world rule?

Personally I think my country should stop interfering in the ME and take itself off ME fossil fuel dependency but it matters little as when the ME's reserves eventually run out no-one will give a shit about what you get up to there, unless of course you decide to take up conversion by the sword again.

Belinda
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Belinda » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:22 pm

If there was was global Muslim rule I'd rather it was Ahmadiyya then I would not mind so much being forced to sign up.

But the coarser Muslim sects disapprove of Ahmadiyya.

http://www.loveforallhatredfornone.org/

[*]Refuting those who sought to justify their hateful terrorist acts in the name of Islam, His Holiness stated that the Quran categorically stated that there should be no compulsion in religion. He said that Allah the Almighty had forbidden the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) from using any force or compulsion in order to spread Islam and, given this, how could it be possible for any Muslim to be given a licence not afforded to the Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him) himself.

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henry quirk
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what will you (the islamist) do if I don't want to join your world rule?

Post by henry quirk » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:04 pm

That really is the question that nags at most non-islamists.

Most folks, I think, don't give a flip about the wider or deeper questions of philosophy or theology (I don't...that's all angels on a pinhead to me), but do care an awful lot about being restricted or restrained unnecessarily, which is sumthin' sharia seems to demand.

Belinda
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Re: what will you (the islamist) do if I don't want to join your world rule?

Post by Belinda » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:50 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:04 pm
That really is the question that nags at most non-islamists.

Most folks, I think, don't give a flip about the wider or deeper questions of philosophy or theology (I don't...that's all angels on a pinhead to me), but do care an awful lot about being restricted or restrained unnecessarily, which is sumthin' sharia seems to demand.
True. However we do need laws and the more crowded cities become the more behaviour has to be restricted .I gather that sharia law is much more to do with regulating behaviour than believing stuff.

Islam is on the whole an authoritarian creed and the rituals and other behaviours are important aspects of being a Muslim. I don't know if it would be possible to be accepted as a Muslim, or as a Roman Catholic without at least attending the services at mosque or church and doing the rituals. It's more important for RCs at least to confess that they believe in the RC creed, and they can then be saved even if they are badly behaved.

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