We're not at war with Islam?

How should society be organised, if at all?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Boca
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:07 am

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Boca » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:06 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:24 am


Human sympathy and rational justice as demonstrated in the social welfare laws of Islam is also shown to be characteristic of Jesus. Islam is better in that it is more specific. It's unfortunate that it's so difficult to separate the social welfare enshrined in the great religions from the authoritarianism of the creeds in their entirety.

However, liberal Christianity has given birth to Humanism, which agrees that usury and gambling are evils. It's doubtful if Islam could survive if it became liberalised; Islam , much more than liberal Christianity ,depends upon a book of rules and mandated praxis.
Can Islam as a political force possibly be democratic?

few notes
Jesus(pbuh) is mentioned in Qur'an as the Messenger and Representative of God, like Muhammad (pbuh), and the religion and lifestyle which Jesus preached was Islam, not Christianity.. So, we don't ever argue against Jesus, what we argue is the Concept of Trinity, Son of God, is completely alien to original Monotheism of Abraham.

Islam did not start with Muhammad (pbuh), it became Complete with Him. All prophets from Adam to Muhammad preached the same religion, which is Islam. Those Harams that we have in Islam, like usury, gambling were already Haram with Jesus. You're right Islam is more specific, that's because Islam was Completed. Reason why Qur'an wasn't revealed from the beginning of Humanity is within God's Wisdom. Human society was still in its infancy, that's why such detailed revelation like Qur'an wasn't needed at the time of Adam. As the human society grew and became Globalized, God Almighty sent His Final most detailed Revelation with his Final and most authoritative Messenger. Muhammad (pbuh) is Universal Messenger, sent to All Humanity, that's why You and every other Human being has the obligation to Obey and follow Him. Jesus(pbuh) himself Obeys and Follows Muhammad (pbuh), as stated in prophecy, Jesus(pbuh) will descend from Heaven to Damascus and Pray behind Muhammad Al Mahdi.

Islam is Authoritarian because God has Full Authority, So the muslims demand it. Political principle of Islam is to establish Kingdom of God all across the planet. Islam's End Goal is One World Government ruling from World's center- Jerusalem, and that's what Mahdi (AS) and Jesus(pbuh) are set to do

Making Islam liberal and questioning Islam with skepticism, is like Questioning God's revelation and authority, We're not allowed to do that. in the End, it all boils down to FAITH in GOD, do you believe in God and His Messenger ?? you may not, but we do.

Belinda
Posts: 1796
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Belinda » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:05 pm

Boca wrote:
God Almighty sent His Final most detailed Revelation with his Final and most authoritative Messenger. Muhammad (pbuh) is Universal Messenger, sent to All Humanity, that's why You and every other Human being has the obligation to Obey and follow Him.
In that case as you are not yourself the Holy Prophet ,and are not even a seventh century Arab, you are no wiser than any infidel. Moreover you lack the scepticism that might protect you from power -seeking charlatans.

Boca
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:07 am

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Boca » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:21 pm

Belinda wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:05 pm

In that case as you are not yourself the Holy Prophet ,and are not even a seventh century Arab, you are no wiser than any infidel. Moreover you lack the scepticism that might protect you from power -seeking charlatans.
I didn't ask to obey me. Obey God and His Human Representative, to do that, you should Read Qur'an with submission and see how it feels.
Love is the meaning of Life, Love of God and His Rasul. I've seen in Bible talking about God and the Lamb. The Lamb is Muhammad (pbuh)

bobevenson
Posts: 7349
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:02 am
Contact:

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by bobevenson » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:57 pm

Boca wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:21 pm
I didn't ask to obey me. Obey God and His Human Representative, to do that, you should Read Qur'an with submission and see how it feels.
Love is the meaning of Life, Love of God and His Rasul. I've seen in Bible talking about God and the Lamb. The Lamb is Muhammad (pbuh)
I'm sorry, but the only divinely inspired book is Revelation, and I refer you to the following: "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled." -Revelation 17:17, a description of the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns in chapter and verse.

Boca
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:07 am

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Boca » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:31 am

bobevenson wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:57 pm

I'm sorry, but the only divinely inspired book is Revelation, and I refer you to the following: "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled." -Revelation 17:17, a description of the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns in chapter and verse.
I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.(Revelation 6:2)
The wilderness and the desert will be glad, And the Arabiah will rejoice and blossom; Like the crocus (Isaiah 35:1)

Belinda
Posts: 1796
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Belinda » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:38 am

Boca wrote:
I didn't ask to obey me. Obey God and His Human Representative, to do that, you should Read Qur'an with submission and see how it feels.
Love is the meaning of Life, Love of God and His Rasul. I've seen in Bible talking about God and the Lamb. The Lamb is Muhammad (pbuh)
But Islam is not democratic. Because it's not democratic Islam , with its insistence upon the infallibility of the Holy Book, can be hi-jacked by dictators in countries where Islam is the only permitted creed.

How can a man be free to love God if he is forced to submit?

Submission to God is absolute and does not include idolatry of any holy book, or any human prophet.

User avatar
Arising_uk
Posts: 10936
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:09 pm

Boca wrote:...
Islam is Authoritarian because God has Full Authority, So the muslims demand it. Political principle of Islam is to establish Kingdom of God all across the planet. Islam's End Goal is One World Government ruling from World's center- Jerusalem, and that's what Mahdi (AS) and Jesus(pbuh) are set to do

Making Islam liberal and questioning Islam with skepticism, is like Questioning God's revelation and authority, We're not allowed to do that. in the End, it all boils down to FAITH in GOD, do you believe in God and His Messenger ?? you may not, but we do.
So what you are saying is that we are right to believe that we are at war with Islam and that it would be prudent of us to attack and kill as many Muslims as we can before you get into a position to come and kill us?

Boca
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:07 am

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Boca » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:26 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:09 pm
So what you are saying is that we are right to believe that we are at war with Islam and that it would be prudent of us to attack and kill as many Muslims as we can before you get into a position to come and kill us?
[/quote]

You and us are different worlds, we can coexist understanding our differences. we leave you alone, as long you leave us alone. Middle East is the center of the World, birthplace of Jesus and all monotheistic faiths and prophets, and it's been under Muslim rule for 14 centuries. We promote peaceful expansion of Muslim Domain, with missionary activities. But if you come with sword, we'll respond with sword. Instead of killing as many muslims as you can, you'd better accept our message, and surrender to God. Islam means Submission to God.

Belinda
Posts: 1796
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Belinda » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:48 pm

Boca wrote:
You and us are different worlds, we can coexist understanding our differences. we leave you alone, as long you leave us alone. Middle East is the center of the World, birthplace of Jesus and all monotheistic faiths and prophets, and it's been under Muslim rule for 14 centuries. We promote peaceful expansion of Muslim Domain, with missionary activities. But if you come with sword, we'll respond with sword. Instead of killing as many muslims as you can, you'd better accept our message, and surrender to God. Islam means Submission to God.
It's apparent that national borders don't stop ideas .Muslims don't want a North Korean degree of isolation from the modern world. The Gates of Ijtihad can open and so benefit Muslims and infidels.

Most groups of people will object to oppression by the sword. Why are Muslims so afraid of oppression?

User avatar
Arising_uk
Posts: 10936
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:45 pm

Boca wrote: You and us are different worlds, we can coexist understanding our differences. we leave you alone, as long you leave us alone. ...
For sure, I've long advocated leaving the ME alone to have it's sectarian wars. Although how can we trust you? As if you read your book in chronological order you can see that your prophet started out like Jesus with the idea of conversion by the word but was not that successful and turned to conversion by the sword and was very successful, so what's to stop you following that example? Especially given you want to rule over all of us. As such why shouldn't we just drop a couple of large nukes on the ME and be done with all of you and your theistic squabbles?
Middle East is the center of the World, ...
I think the Chinese would disagree with you.
birthplace of Jesus and all monotheistic faiths and prophets, and it's been under Muslim rule for 14 centuries. ...
And what a fairly piss-poor job you've done of it.
We promote peaceful expansion of Muslim Domain, with missionary activities. ...
Who's this 'we' as there seems to be some of you who still follow conversion by the sword, enslavement and rape?
But if you come with sword, we'll respond with sword. Instead of killing as many muslims as you can, you'd better accept our message, and surrender to God. Islam means Submission to God.
And if we don't?

Boca
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:07 am

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Boca » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:43 pm

Belinda wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:48 pm

It's apparent that national borders don't stop ideas .Muslims don't want a North Korean degree of isolation from the modern world. The Gates of Ijtihad can open and so benefit Muslims and infidels.
Most groups of people will object to oppression by the sword. Why are Muslims so afraid of oppression?
Listen up
Summons and Invitation will always continue , it's obligation upon Muslims to spread God's Message and extend Islamic domain.
Arabs are Chosen Semitic race from the lineage of Abraham, Middle East is the world's center, Chosen race doesn't mean ethnic superiority, it means Spiritual Aristocracy to be obeyed. Revelation comes to Mid East to prophets from special Lineage, and from there it spreads to all the world.
God and His Messenger have Full Authority, Qur'an is Ultimate Constitution for all the humanity. Taking all these into account, We can't isolate ourselves neither you can. both the Alliance and Dialogue between our Civilizations is possible.

User avatar
Arising_uk
Posts: 10936
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:00 am

Boca wrote:...Taking all these into account, We can't isolate ourselves neither you can. both the Alliance and Dialogue between our Civilizations is possible.
Sure but if we're not interested in you ruling the world and living under your laws, what then?

Belinda
Posts: 1796
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Belinda » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:03 am

Boca wrote :
Chosen race doesn't mean ethnic superiority, it means Spiritual Aristocracy to be obeyed. Revelation comes to Mid East to prophets from special Lineage, and from there it spreads to all the world.
I suppose that Muhammad was clever enough to claim 'Spiritual' authority for his modernisation programme against the old Arabian paganism with its primitive vendetta system of justice.

I wonder if Boca knows much about Islamic theory and history. Muhammad was a real person, you know. He was not some magician who could fly and talk to an angel.
Until Muslim countries and Muslim communities in the West allow their people to express themselves freely -- without fear of reprisal -- it is unlikely that the Muslim world will be able to think creatively and again become a center of science and knowledge, as it used to be in the early centuries of Islam.
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3114/muslims-ijtihad
Between those who are taught and those who parrot, is a vast difference!) Those who parrot could only repeat after you; those who are taught, and taught well, pave their own path. Others can then follow in their path.
Munshi Abdullah

bobevenson
Posts: 7349
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:02 am
Contact:

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by bobevenson » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:49 am

Boca wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:31 am
bobevenson wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:57 pm

I'm sorry, but the only divinely inspired book is Revelation, and I refer you to the following: "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled." -Revelation 17:17, a description of the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns in chapter and verse.
I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.(Revelation 6:2)
The rider on the white horse is the False Prophet, followed by war on the red horse, famine on the black horse and pestilence on the pale horse, O my brothers in tribulation!

User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 2288
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Lacewing » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:37 am

Boca wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:31 am
I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.(Revelation 6:2)
He went out conquering and to conquer? Isn't that a bit redundant? Sounds like the way Trump repeats words to try and make what he says sound more substantial.
bobevenson wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:57 pm
The rider on the white horse is the False Prophet, followed by war on the red horse, famine on the black horse and pestilence on the pale horse, O my brothers in tribulation!
No... OH BROTHER!

What color is pale? Did the author only know 3 colors? So the arrival of a false prophet (which you happen to be one of) is followed by war, famine, and pestilence, correct? That doesn't seem very profound. Naturally, dishonorable liars in high positions can bring about all sorts of destruction to humankind.

Seriously, what information does the book of Revelation provide that is helpful to us? Name anything that makes sense and isn't already obvious through basic observation and awareness. Anything at all.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests