We're not at war with Islam?

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Seleucus
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Seleucus » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:01 pm

Belinda wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:20 am
Seleucus wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:14 am
Fourth episode released, https://youtu.be/Ln13_9kO0II

If you are not aware of Al-Ghazali's work on The incoherence of the philosophers this is an especially important episode.
This is popular historiography via a pretty and seductive video film play. As such it lacks seriousness because it lacks references to sources. The place of Islam in the modern world is too important a problem to be dealt with by popularised and inadequate words and pictures. I am sorry, Seleucus, I appreciate your effort to send the video, but it's not what I had in mind.
Oh? What points about the producer's narrative on Al-Ghazali did you feel were weak or misrepresentative?

Belinda
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Belinda » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:40 pm

Seleucus wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:01 pm
Belinda wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:20 am
Seleucus wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:14 am
Fourth episode released, https://youtu.be/Ln13_9kO0II

If you are not aware of Al-Ghazali's work on The incoherence of the philosophers this is an especially important episode.
This is popular historiography via a pretty and seductive video film play. As such it lacks seriousness because it lacks references to sources. The place of Islam in the modern world is too important a problem to be dealt with by popularised and inadequate words and pictures. I am sorry, Seleucus, I appreciate your effort to send the video, but it's not what I had in mind.
Oh? What points about the producer's narrative on Al-Ghazali did you feel were weak or misrepresentative?
I am not going to offer any critique of the narrative because the production method (popular video) and the lack of links to sources, let alone respectable sources, brand it as propaganda.

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Seleucus
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Seleucus » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:23 am

Belinda wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:40 pm
Seleucus wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:01 pm
Belinda wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:20 am


This is popular historiography via a pretty and seductive video film play. As such it lacks seriousness because it lacks references to sources. The place of Islam in the modern world is too important a problem to be dealt with by popularised and inadequate words and pictures. I am sorry, Seleucus, I appreciate your effort to send the video, but it's not what I had in mind.
Oh? What points about the producer's narrative on Al-Ghazali did you feel were weak or misrepresentative?
I am not going to offer any critique of the narrative because the production method (popular video) and the lack of links to sources, let alone respectable sources, brand it as propaganda.
In other words, you've never even heard of Al-Ghazali.

I dare you to write a short paragraph on the significance of Al-Ghazali to Western philosophy and Islamic civilization.

Based on my own extensive reading of Islamic history and philosophy, I expect the problem with the episode isn't the information about Islam, but the portrayal of the European feudal system as producing excesses of war mongering knights. This view was part of the traditional narrative of the Crusades but is becoming supplanted by a perspective where burgeoning European civilizational development, especially agricultural, is what lead to the the growth in population and wealth facilitating essentially a racial migration. The stuff about the cannibalism is probably true, it appears in both Christian and Muslim primary sources. The most likely reason for this little slip about the feudal system is I think that the producer of the series is (ex-?)Muslim and hence not as well familiar with the latest scholarship on medieval Europe. Either way the one sentence doesn't take anything away from the focus of episode which is the rise of irrationalism in Islamic thinking. The level of intellectual sophistication of this series is leaps and bounds above what is passing in this discussion.

Belinda
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Belinda » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:17 am

Seleucus wrote:
In other words, you've never even heard of Al-Ghazali.
I dare you to write a short paragraph on the significance of Al-Ghazali to Western philosophy and Islamic civilization.

Based on my own extensive reading of Islamic history and philosophy, I expect the problem with the episode isn't the information about Islam, but the portrayal of the European feudal system as producing excesses of war mongering knights. This view was part of the traditional narrative of the Crusades but is becoming supplanted by a perspective where burgeoning European civilizational development, especially agricultural, is what lead to the the growth in population and wealth facilitating essentially a racial migration. The stuff about the cannibalism is probably true, it appears in both Christian and Muslim primary sources. The most likely reason for this little slip about the feudal system is I think that the producer of the series is (ex-?)Muslim and hence not as well familiar with the latest scholarship on medieval Europe. Either way the one sentence doesn't take anything away from the focus of episode which is the rise of irrationalism in Islamic thinking. The level of intellectual sophistication of this series is leaps and bounds above what is passing in this discussion.
I regret that I had never heard of Al_Ghazali. This confession is not "other words" for what I wrote. I do respect history and that's why I don't want my introduction to the history of Islam to be weak on scholarship.

When you say your reading is extensive I believe you , and I am interested in information from you. However I would like you also to include links to respectable sources.As I said, the history of Islam matters and deserves serious attention, including from nobodies like me. Your interpretation, above, makes a lot of sense to me, and thanks to you for relaying your interest.

I would dare as you suggest but I cannot do it because I don't know.

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Seleucus
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Seleucus » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:39 pm

Your honesty and humility is astounding. Not being sarcastic.

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Seleucus
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Seleucus » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:48 am

While it was known for a long time, in fact I wrote about it here on Philosophy Now Forum about six months ago, documents have come to light showing that Muhammadiyah and NU, the two largest Muslim organizations in Indonesia were central to the Indonesian genocide. Long portrayed as a genocide of Chinese or a political massacre of Communists, the truth that has long been known by scholars is coming into the mainstream: the Indonesian Genocide was a mass murder of as many as 3 million people committed by Muslims against non-Muslims and persons of sects of Islam considered heretical by the mainstream. This is the fourth genocide committed by Muslims in a century: the Armenian Genocide, the Greek Genocide, the Indonesian Genocide and the Iraq-Syria Genocide. Since Muslims and colored people must always be portrayed as the eternal victims, the story is reported by the BBC in the terms of "the evil-American narrative" as the same documents show American diplomats in Indonesia were aware of the unfolding of the genocide.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41651047

Belinda
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Belinda » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:38 am

Seleucus wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:48 am
While it was known for a long time, in fact I wrote about it here on Philosophy Now Forum about six months ago, documents have come to light showing that Muhammadiyah and NU, the two largest Muslim organizations in Indonesia were central to the Indonesian genocide. Long portrayed as a genocide of Chinese or a political massacre of Communists, the truth that has long been known by scholars is coming into the mainstream: the Indonesian Genocide was a mass murder of as many as 3 million people committed by Muslims against non-Muslims and persons of sects of Islam considered heretical by the mainstream. This is the fourth genocide committed by Muslims in a century: the Armenian Genocide, the Greek Genocide, the Indonesian Genocide and the Iraq-Syria Genocide. Since Muslims and colored people must always be portrayed as the eternal victims, the story is reported by the BBC in the terms of "the evil-American narrative" as the same documents show American diplomats in Indonesia were aware of the unfolding of the genocide.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41651047
Is Islam, or are Muslims, a special case of murderous tribalists? No, they are not. Myanmar shows the Buddhists are just as bad.

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Seleucus
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Seleucus » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:46 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:38 am
Seleucus wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:48 am
While it was known for a long time, in fact I wrote about it here on Philosophy Now Forum about six months ago, documents have come to light showing that Muhammadiyah and NU, the two largest Muslim organizations in Indonesia were central to the Indonesian genocide. Long portrayed as a genocide of Chinese or a political massacre of Communists, the truth that has long been known by scholars is coming into the mainstream: the Indonesian Genocide was a mass murder of as many as 3 million people committed by Muslims against non-Muslims and persons of sects of Islam considered heretical by the mainstream. This is the fourth genocide committed by Muslims in a century: the Armenian Genocide, the Greek Genocide, the Indonesian Genocide and the Iraq-Syria Genocide. Since Muslims and colored people must always be portrayed as the eternal victims, the story is reported by the BBC in the terms of "the evil-American narrative" as the same documents show American diplomats in Indonesia were aware of the unfolding of the genocide.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41651047
Is Islam, or are Muslims, a special case of murderous tribalists? No, they are not. Myanmar shows the Buddhists are just as bad.
More likely they've just had enough of living with these intolerable people. Buddhists seem to get along okay with Hindus in India, with Christians in Korea, with animists in Japan, and with atheists in China, but everywhere Muslims live they find themselves in conflict with those around them...

Belinda
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Belinda » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:12 pm

Seleucus wrote regarding the genocide of the Rohingya of Myanmar:
More likely they've just had enough of living with these intolerable people. Buddhists seem to get along okay with Hindus in India, with Christians in Korea, with animists in Japan, and with atheists in China, but everywhere Muslims live they find themselves in conflict with those around them...
There are certain events that you ought not to use as ammunition . Your world is too black and white. This will not do. The Myanmar regime is clearly wrong.

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Seleucus
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Seleucus » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:19 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:12 pm
The Myanmar regime is clearly wrong.
The other perspective is that they've been bullied and preyed upon by proxy sultanates from the Ganges Delta for 500 years and are sick and tired of exploitation and abuse at the hands of Muslims. Probably pretty tired of the megaphones on the mosques too and never being able to get any peace and quite or a good night's rest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Belinda
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Belinda » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:24 pm

A perspective is not a justification of cruelty.

Boca
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Boca » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:08 pm

Belinda wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:20 am

Atheists are usually well aware of the power and beauty of the natural world. This is why I can sympathise with God-believers, that it is nice to be able to be thankful .

Does there have to be a supernatural object of worship?
if there's Beauty, Order, Symmetry there must be a Creator and Designer of them. Islam from very beginning is promoting learning of natural sciences, observation of God's creation

Boca
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Boca » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:34 pm

Belinda wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:44 am
Boca wrote:
if you're right, then explain what are the economic principles of Christianity ?
Among modern, liberal, Christians the economic principles are welfare socialist principles.

Among modern, right-wing , Christians the economic principles are capitalist principles that those believers legitimate partly by sentiments around rural feudal hierarchy, and partly by right-wing lies which aim to benefit the rich classes.

I see Islam as as possessing welfare standards which are as good as and more practical than those of Jesus. The bad side of Islam is that priests and holy books are more trusted than open-minded scepticism. Especially bad about Islam is that the Koran approves of killing outsiders, which the teaching of Jesus specifically condemns.

I understand that world of Islam includes scholars who modernise the precepts written in the Koran and for whom the gates of Ijtihad are not closed. Therein lies the hope for Muslims.
Tell me whether Usury, Gambling, Fiat money among others are prohibited in any wing or sect of Christianity ?? Tell me if there's obligatory charity fee cut from christians, which is allocated to the poor, the needy, the disabled and the orphans, and what sort of sanctions does the state apply on those who refuse to pay charity fee ?? So know that Islam is much more than a mere religion, it's a lifestyle, and ideology with certain economic principles, and thus it's not comparable to any other religion.

Belinda
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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by Belinda » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:24 am

Boca wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:34 pm
Belinda wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:44 am
Boca wrote:
if you're right, then explain what are the economic principles of Christianity ?
Among modern, liberal, Christians the economic principles are welfare socialist principles.

Among modern, right-wing , Christians the economic principles are capitalist principles that those believers legitimate partly by sentiments around rural feudal hierarchy, and partly by right-wing lies which aim to benefit the rich classes.

I see Islam as as possessing welfare standards which are as good as and more practical than those of Jesus. The bad side of Islam is that priests and holy books are more trusted than open-minded scepticism. Especially bad about Islam is that the Koran approves of killing outsiders, which the teaching of Jesus specifically condemns.

I understand that world of Islam includes scholars who modernise the precepts written in the Koran and for whom the gates of Ijtihad are not closed. Therein lies the hope for Muslims.
Tell me whether Usury, Gambling, Fiat money among others are prohibited in any wing or sect of Christianity ?? Tell me if there's obligatory charity fee cut from christians, which is allocated to the poor, the needy, the disabled and the orphans, and what sort of sanctions does the state apply on those who refuse to pay charity fee ?? So know that Islam is much more than a mere religion, it's a lifestyle, and ideology with certain economic principles, and thus it's not comparable to any other religion.
Human sympathy and rational justice as demonstrated in the social welfare laws of Islam is also shown to be characteristic of Jesus. Islam is better in that it is more specific. It's unfortunate that it's so difficult to separate the social welfare enshrined in the great religions from the authoritarianism of the creeds in their entirety.

However, liberal Christianity has given birth to Humanism, which agrees that usury and gambling are evils. It's doubtful if Islam could survive if it became liberalised; Islam , much more than liberal Christianity ,depends upon a book of rules and mandated praxis.
Can Islam as a political force possibly be democratic?

PS for my information,
Fiat money is currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, but it is not backed by a physical commodity. The value of fiat money is derived from the relationship between supply and demand rather than the value of the material that the money is made of.

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Re: We're not at war with Islam?

Post by bobevenson » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:19 pm

Fiat money is currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, but it is not backed by a physical commodity. The value of fiat money is derived from the relationship between supply and demand rather than the value of the material that the money is made of.
Fiat money can or cannot be backed by a physical commodity. Money by definition has no intrinsic value because if it did, it wouldn't be money, it would be a commodity.

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