Venezuela

[Walker]

Venezuela 5-18-16

What the hell is going on there?

Failed socialism, or is that an oxymoron?

[henry quirk]

Elsewhere, in-forum, Gary (I think it was) said sumthin' about there not being any real examples of a true free market.

What i was gonna say in that thread was 'This may be true on the large scale, but on the small(er) scale there are plenty of examples of the success of a free/unrestricted market, just as there are a whack of large scale examples of how socialism consistently fails. It fails as economic theory, it fails as social skeleton, it fails simply cuz that's not how human beings are wired'.

[Walker]

Someone screwed up big time for all that suffering.

Who’s the culprit. What was the wrong thing to do, and who did it.

[Gary Childress]

Elsewhere, in-forum, Gary (I think it was) said sumthin' about there not being any real examples of a true free market.

What i was gonna say in that thread was 'This may be true on the large scale, but on the small(er) scale there are plenty of examples of the success of a free/unrestricted market, just as there are a whack of large scale examples of how socialism consistently fails. It fails as economic theory, it fails as social skeleton, it fails simply cuz that's not how human beings are wired'.

What are some examples of smaller scale successes of a "free unrestricted" market?

[henry quirk]

Every time I conduct business, is the best example I can give.

I self-employ...my contracts, my fees, the whole shebang of my work, is set by me.

Of course I have to dicker with some clients about money (they understandably wanna pay less, and I, understandably, want them to pay more), but this is part of the game of an unregulated transaction (which, again, is the basis for an open market).

Pretty sure I violate all manner of regulation and law when I operate this way...*shrug*...my clients don't seem to mind.

My point: on any given day, at any given time, thousands of unregulated transactions happen, transactions bound up not in law but only in supply and demand, want and access, and, of course, payment and profit.

[Gary Childress]

Every time I conduct business, is the best example I can give.

I self-employ...my contracts, my fees, the whole shebang of my work, is set by me.

Of course I have to dicker with some clients about money (they understandably wanna pay less, and I, understandably, want them to pay more), but this is part of the game of an unregulated transaction (which, again, is the basis for an open market).

Pretty sure I violate all manner of regulation and law when I operate this way...*shrug*...my clients don't seem to mind.

My point: on any given day, at any given time, thousands of unregulated transactions happen, transactions bound up not in law but only in supply and demand, want and access, and, of course, payment and profit.

Do you pay anything into your own social security in your dealings? Do you benefit at all from infrastructure, for example roads or bridges by which to meet with your clients?

[henry quirk]

I don't put a dime into the SS as I won't ever draw a dime out of the SS. I don't expect that particular scam to be in play when I'm old(er). I do expect I'll be workin' till I drop dead.

As for the rest: I pay taxes, Gary.

Not seein' your point.

[Gary Childress]

I don't put a dime into the SS as I won't ever draw a dime out of the SS. I don't expect that particular scam to be in play when I'm old(er). I do expect I'll be workin' till I drop dead.

As for the rest: I pay taxes, Gary.

Not seein' your point.

The point is, even on the micro level, you probably benefit from many things which are not products of an unfettered "free market". The computers which we're both typing on right now are here at this time in part because of massive government expenditures in R&D decades ago. Probably what we have now would have come into being at some point but government intervention undoubtedly hastened the process.

As far as retirement, good luck. Not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to work until they "drop dead". Even the paragon of "free market" capitalism, Ayn Rand withdrew social security toward the end of her life.

[henry quirk]

Yeah, I benefit from all manner of collective/communal stuff and I pay for my use of all of it (by way of [poorly spent] taxes, and good, old fashioned, transaction).

Not seein' how this negates my example.

And: nice try lumpin' me in with Rand but she ain't my goddess in polyester.

[Gary Childress]

Yeah, I benefit from all manner of collective/communal stuff and I pay for my use of all of it (by way of [poorly spent] taxes, and good, old fashioned, transaction).

Not seein' how this negates my example.

And: nice try lumpin' me in with Rand but she ain't my goddess in polyester.

You said:

What i was gonna say in that thread was 'This may be true on the large scale, but on the small(er) scale there are plenty of examples of the success of a free/unrestricted market,

I just pointed out that much of your current business is intermingled with (even dependent upon) products and services of a not so "free" market. So how can you call it success of a "free unrestricted" market with any assurance when you are immersed over your head in a market rife with government intervention, restrictions and other "meddling"? Remember, this all spawned out of my post in reply to Bob, asking him to give an example of a relatively successful and wealthy society which has a perfectly "free" market. Bob's position is that a society with a perfectly "free" market will be more prosperous than a society without a "free" market. I asked him for examples to back his claim, which of course he did not provide.

As far as Ayn Rand, my point is, don't be so sure that you may not find yourself in a position where you won't need social security at some point. Even Ayn Rand, who was adamantly opposed to it, ended up benefitting from it.

[henry quirk]

When I sit down with a potential client, this is what happens...

He wants X...he knows I can provide X...I assess his particular needs and quote a price...he accepts the price or dickers with me...if we dicker, we come to a mutally agreable price or we don't.

It is a pure, unadulterated, transaction which -- again -- is the heart of a free or open market.

That our transaction occurs in a sea of interventions has nuthin' to do with nuthin'. That we transact well, in spite of that sea of interventions, sez a lot about a true market.

He wants what I can provide...we transact or we don't.

You seem to be sayin' that without the benefits of the collective, he and me couldn't even sit down together much less arrive at anything mutally beneficial together. Certainly it's easier to meet him when I can drive on a road (I, in part, pay for), but I got two legs that work just fine and -- in a pinch -- can carry me over field and hill and through the bayou, just as legs have done for countless others since man fell out of the trees.


As for my needin' or takin' SS: we'll see.

[Walker]

I don't put a dime into the SS as I won't ever draw a dime out of the SS. I don't expect that particular scam to be in play when I'm old(er). I do expect I'll be workin' till I drop dead.

As for the rest: I pay taxes, Gary.

Not seein' your point.

The point is, even on the micro level, you probably benefit from many things which are not products of an unfettered "free market". The computers which we're both typing on right now are here at this time in part because of massive government expenditures in R&D decades ago. Probably what we have now would have come into being at some point but government intervention undoubtedly hastened the process.

As far as retirement, good luck. Not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to work until they "drop dead". Even the paragon of "free market" capitalism, Ayn Rand withdrew social security toward the end of her life.

Working until you drop dead was the original intent of the SS program. The original SS intent followed henry's philosophy in that regard.

Payments were to begin about the same time as life expectancy ended.

Since then life expectancy increased a lot but the age of eligibility didn't change so much.

Short commentary.

Capitalism Does Much More for Poor People Than Government Playing Santa Claus
http://reason.com/archives/2014/12/17/g ... -vs-giving

[Gustav Bjornstrand]

Walker, I lived in Venezuela for 5 years or so and I think I can say a thing or two that might help you. I don't think you would get these perspectives anywhere else and most European or American people will look at Venezuela through eyes that cannot see it since they see it through their own terms, their own lens of perception.

One interesting and important element to the culture of Venezuela is the cultural matrix of the place: a specific indigenous culture that was rebellious and non-cooperative and resisted the Spanish tooth and nail. You might imagine that this was a universal feature of all indigenous cultures and yet it is not. Each indigenous culture resisted the Conquest differently. For example, in Mexico many indigenous tribes were already conditioned to submission by the dominance of the Aztec culture, so when the Spanish came on the scene and soundly defeated the Aztecs the Spanish more or less took over their network.

I don't know a great deal about it but the tribes around Caracas were ferocious and never really gave in to the Spanish colonial rulership. There is a very interesting and complicating feature to Venezuelan culture that I have never seen referred to in any Western journalism: The native religion of Venezuela. It is a mixture of spiritism (Alan Kardec), indigenous mythology, mythologies of the African slaves, all mixed together with Catholic and Christian notions. There is a spiritual 'corte' (court) of deceased souls which can be supplicated by the living to act in this world on their behalf. El Indio Guacaipuro is an entity which is invoked and channeled by devotees in rites and rituals similar to Haitian Voodoo and Cuban Santeria. Guaicaipuro was one of these rebellious Indian chiefs I referred to and he is a sort of minor god within the Venezuelan psyche, along with 'El Negro Felipe' (an African Slave entity) and a host of other entities which can as I say be invoked and called on for help in this world.

As in all of Latin America the social and economic structures of Venezuela followed the pattern of post-conquest. You know how this goes: wealthy elites with landed interests and a larger percentage of the post-colonial population living in poor rural communities and situations. When the oil industry expoloded in Venezuela in the early 20th century it gave a great deal (more) wealth to these elites and a certain amount of general wealth to the whole country. But they never exploited it as an opportunity. Never used the wealth to develop industries, infrastructure, etc. In the 60s and 70s there was so much money floating around and Venezuela was relatively stable. But with the 60s radicalism the mood of nationalistic rebellion increased and attempted to politicize the rural populations who enjoyed far less of that urban-centered wealth. I assume you know some of this history in Latin America?

In Venezuela these currents of rebellion, at a popular level, became animated I guess you'd say with the 'spiritual psychology' of the Corte and of course the main rebellios figures. Che Guevara would be and was interpreted as a manifestation of the indigenous rebel spirit of entities like Guaicaipuro (and a dozen other minor figures). It is hard to speak clearly about social psychology but these currents of thought and emotion are very alive and very potent in Venezuela.

In the 80s the Venezuelan economy was 'adjusted' and it collapsed more-or-less. The bubble of false wealth burst and the easy, wasteful urban lifestyle came under real pressure. But the governmental class, inflated by thousands and thousands false employees (a political figure signing up his family members and enrolling them as employees to receive pay-outs), and tens and hundreds of other abuse scams, still had access to the oil wealth, and thus represented an interested class with lots of money. Needless to say the government, for this and many reasons, was hated.

In 1992 Hugo Chavez stages d his unsuccessful coup but he electrified the nation as a manifestation of the indigenous spirit of rebellion. He was meztizo, a soldier and warrior, and was 'interpreted' and played into the myth of warrior-savior. He more or less lived this myth and was perfectly adapted to it. He had a tremendous support from all sectors except the former governing sector and, it must be said, a sector of technocrats who would certainly better have chanelled Venezuela's wealth. This class is and has been a presence in Latin America and are the ones behind the economic successes in Colombia, Chile, etc. It is a class associated with and cooperative with American and European economic interests. You'd have to have an interest in Latin America to know of the struggles of this new class, as it were, against old entrenched political classes.

In short, Chavez used all his astounding charisma to establish a power-base in Venezuela. I won't bore you with the details but it had much to do with rhetoric and promises and far less to do with actual works. Yet the people, even when their conditions did not change much, or got worse, still loved him. There in my view is the power of social psychology and the mythic element.

Hugo Chavez and his family and a whole class of hangers-on have gutted Venezuela just as most historical strongmen have done (caudillismo). Billions and billions of dollars channeled into this new parasitic class. Much rhetoric, little accomplished socially, and the destruction of the economic class that did exist in Venezuela. The level of destruction and misery is terrible and it will take a full generation to reconstruct Venezuela.

I focused on the religion of Venezuela (El Corte Celestial) because I think that it illustrates a relevant psychological factor that operates in culture. If you wanted some sort of summation from me I would say that to get a country and an economy to operate correctly is a rational effort and must be undertaken by trained technocrats. These technocrats must have been educated in Europe and the US to gain the expertise and a 'model' on which to base their efforts. For the Latin American economies and cultures to gain a degree of health and functionality the rhetoric of rebellion and non-cooperation, while attractive to the angry psychology of the poor and abused (for good reasons), never works out well. This is a down-side of populism. Thus, the Venezuelan psychology in and of itself, because it got hold of the whole culture, destroyed the possibility of progress and dragged things into the ground. My view is that 'the people' do not know how to progress and when given rein, mess it up. This is a sad fact but it is a fact. Good government requires, well, good government. Getting to 'good government' in Latin America has been a loooonnggggg road.

It is important to note that a class of European and American social justice warriors, who had no understanding of Venezuela or Latin America, attempted to 'come to the rescue' of Venezuela with the 'Hands Off Venezuela!' Movement and all the 'progressive' rhetoric and activism that you might be aware of. There are videos of Noam Chomsky sharing the state with Chavez and speaking of the 'tremendous good' Chavez was doing. Progressive idealism is one thing, the actual fumnction oof economics is quite another. Formerly well on the Left end of the spectrum myself, my experience in Venezuela politicized me away from leftist politics. You certainly pick this up in what I've written here. Colombia (where I now live) has taken a different route: Run by the rational technocratic class I referred to earlier and yet semi-socialized in terms of universal healthcare and other programs, it walks a line between income disribution schemes and real economic development. If thinks don't get wonky Colombia's success will become more And more apparent.

[Dalek Prime]

Elsewhere, in-forum, Gary (I think it was) said sumthin' about there not being any real examples of a true free market.

What i was gonna say in that thread was 'This may be true on the large scale, but on the small(er) scale there are plenty of examples of the success of a free/unrestricted market, just as there are a whack of large scale examples of how socialism consistently fails. It fails as economic theory, it fails as social skeleton, it fails simply cuz that's not how human beings are wired'.

What are some examples of smaller scale successes of a "free unrestricted" market?

The drug trade and organized crime. Completely free market.

All completely free markets end in oligopoly or monopoly and corporatism/cronyism.

[henry quirk]

Well, certainly a capitalism can end up that way, but I'm not so sure about an open or unrestricted or unrestrained or free market.