Why Lincoln? I don't get it!

[Melchior]

by nearly any measure—personal, political, even literary—Abraham Lincoln set a standard of success that few in history can match. But how many of his contemporaries noticed?

When Lincoln took office in March 1861, he was entering a presidency he had won with only 39.8 percent of the popular vote. Reactions from the public were so negative that on the eve of his inauguration he had to be smuggled into the capital during the dead of night in a disguise. He was looked down upon for everything from his humble beginnings and lack of education to his awkward appearance and high voice. Even the commanding general of his armies, George McClellan, called him the “original gorilla.” (Gives a whole new meaning to to term “OG.”)

http://knowledgenuts.com/2014/01/02/abr ... president/


http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ot/309304/

[Gary Childress]

Interesting articles. Thanks for posting them.

It would be nice if we were able to look at contemporary politics today and draw lessons from the case of Abraham Lincoln outlined in the linked articles, however, hindsight seems to be the only reliable sense organ we humans have.

It might also be a good idea to remind ourselves that even the "greatest" political figures are, in the final analysis, probably not as pristine as lore and legend may often make them out to be.

Here is an excerpt from a speech delivered by Abraham Lincoln in 1858, in debate with one of his political rivals, Stephen Douglas.

While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great Laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyc ... ebate4.htm

[Melchior]

Interesting articles. Thanks for posting them.

It would be nice if we were able to look at contemporary politics today and draw lessons from the case of Abraham Lincoln outlined in the linked articles, however, hindsight seems to be the only reliable sense organ we humans have.

It might also be a good idea to remind ourselves that even the "greatest" political figures are, in the final analysis, probably not as pristine as lore and legend may often make them out to be.

Here is an excerpt from a speech delivered by Abraham Lincoln in debate with one of his political rivals, Stephen Douglas.

While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great Laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyc ... ebate4.htm

If only those who demean Trump had a clue!

[Gary Childress]

Interesting articles. Thanks for posting them.

It would be nice if we were able to look at contemporary politics today and draw lessons from the case of Abraham Lincoln outlined in the linked articles, however, hindsight seems to be the only reliable sense organ we humans have.

It might also be a good idea to remind ourselves that even the "greatest" political figures are, in the final analysis, probably not as pristine as lore and legend may often make them out to be.

Here is an excerpt from a speech delivered by Abraham Lincoln in debate with one of his political rivals, Stephen Douglas.

While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great Laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyc ... ebate4.htm

If only those who demean Trump had a clue!

Had a clue about what? Is Trump on par with Lincoln in some way other than being an object of intense ridicule.

[Melchior]

If only those who demean Trump had a clue!

Had a clue about what? Is Trump on par with Lincoln in some way other than being an object of intense ridicule. [/quote]


Lincoln was hated way more than Trump!

[Gary Childress]

If only those who demean Trump had a clue!

Had a clue about what? Is Trump on par with Lincoln in some way other than being an object of intense ridicule.

Lincoln was hated way more than Trump!

OK. So I'm not clear on how Trump got into this thread, then? Is there some relation between Trump and Lincoln? Obviously politicians routinely face a lot of ridicule from their rivals or people who don't agree with their views for whatever reason.

[Gary Childress]

Some call Bernie Sanders a "commie". My understanding is that he leans more toward what might be called a "social democrat". I mean ad hominems and "mudslinging" are obvious problems in American politics that go all the way back to the beginning of the country. A lot of people probably don't even know entirely what they are protesting at times. However, there are probably also legitimate reasons to be critical of various presidential candidates as well.

It sounds like Lincoln got a lot of flak from abolitionists because compared to many in the abolitionist movement he was more a moderate. And obviously those in favor of the continuation of slavery probably gave him even more flak. He was effectively caught in a crossfire of sorts. As we now know the abolitionists were the ones primarily in the right (compared to those favoring the continuation of slavery). Like many politicians Lincoln probably felt the need to appease as many people as possible and ended up pleasing very few.

[Kayla]

it is my understanding that not all abolitionists believed the blacks to be equal - after all, even if they were inferior it would not follow that they must be enslaved

similarly not all supporters of slavery believed them to be inferior - its just that they often found having slaves to be very convinient

[Gary Childress]

it is my understanding that not all abolitionists believed the blacks to be equal - after all, even if they were inferior it would not follow that they must be enslaved

similarly not all supporters of slavery believed them to be inferior - its just that they often found having slaves to be very convinient

It is probably true of some abolitionists, given many of the beliefs in circulation at the time and some of the "science" offered as proof of those beliefs. It's probably also true that some who owned slaves were just "going with the flow" and didn't really buy into some of the ideas of inferiority. Of course when cornered and actually put to the test of defending their actions, some might then defer to some sort of "rational" reason for it. Either that or a person would have to live exclusively in social groups hermetically sealed off from any real challenges to their practices--entirely possible also.

EDIT: Or a person might be aware that their actions are indefensible and just not care or perhaps simply feel a lot of unresolvable guilt about it. Certainly there are also any number of other issues people might have been angry at Lincoln for. Some may have been critical of him for other economic policies that had little if anything to do with slavery.

[Gary Childress]

So anyway, this entire thread is somewhat mysterious and ambiguous to me and difficult to follow past the first post. I'm curious why Melchior started this thread and gave it the particular subject line he did and how Donald Trump figures into the topic(s) here. Melchior seems like a very bright and intelligent person so surely there must be some good reason behind all this? Or perhaps he's just posting some random information that is maybe interesting but doesn't really pertain to our contemporary society and therefore not really important to know?

[Melchior]

So anyway, this entire thread is somewhat mysterious and ambiguous to me and difficult to follow past the first post. I'm curious why Melchior started this thread and gave it the particular subject line he did and how Donald Trump figures into the topic(s) here. Melchior seems like a very bright and intelligent person so surely there must be some good reason behind all this? Or perhaps he's just posting some random information that is maybe interesting but doesn't really pertain to our contemporary society and therefore not really important to know?

Somebody started a thread "Why Trump? I don't get it."

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18641&hilit=Trump

[Gary Childress]

So anyway, this entire thread is somewhat mysterious and ambiguous to me and difficult to follow past the first post. I'm curious why Melchior started this thread and gave it the particular subject line he did and how Donald Trump figures into the topic(s) here. Melchior seems like a very bright and intelligent person so surely there must be some good reason behind all this? Or perhaps he's just posting some random information that is maybe interesting but doesn't really pertain to our contemporary society and therefore not really important to know?

Somebody started a thread "Why Trump? I don't get it."

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18641&hilit=Trump

I see. So I take it this thread is some sort of parody or spin off of on that thread, then? Whatever the case, the articles in the OP were interesting. Thanks for posting them.

[Melchior]

So anyway, this entire thread is somewhat mysterious and ambiguous to me and difficult to follow past the first post. I'm curious why Melchior started this thread and gave it the particular subject line he did and how Donald Trump figures into the topic(s) here. Melchior seems like a very bright and intelligent person so surely there must be some good reason behind all this? Or perhaps he's just posting some random information that is maybe interesting but doesn't really pertain to our contemporary society and therefore not really important to know?

Somebody started a thread "Why Trump? I don't get it."

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18641&hilit=Trump

I see. So I take it this thread is some sort of parody or spin off of on that thread, then? Whatever the case, the articles in the OP were interesting. Thanks for posting them.

Not a parody, not at all. The point is that Lincoln was hated even by members of his own party. He won with 39.8% of the vote. Sound familiar? Trump is in the same boat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... tion,_1860

[Gary Childress]

Somebody started a thread "Why Trump? I don't get it."

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18641&hilit=Trump

I see. So I take it this thread is some sort of parody or spin off of on that thread, then? Whatever the case, the articles in the OP were interesting. Thanks for posting them.

Not a parody, not at all. The point is that Lincoln was hated even by members of his own party. He won with 39.8% of the vote. Sound familiar? Trump is in the same boat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... tion,_1860

Isn't that pretty much the only similarity between Lincoln and Trump? Lincoln ended a moral travesty our nation was engaging in. What does Trump stand for that is morally laudable?

[Melchior]

Isn't that pretty much the only similarity between Lincoln and Trump? Lincoln ended a moral travesty our nation was engaging in. What does Trump stand for that is morally laudable?

What makes you think that Lincoln was some saint, and Trump is bad? The truth may be quite the other way around!