Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

How should society be organised, if at all?

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bobevenson
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by bobevenson »

Gary Childress wrote:Profiteering: (verb) "make or seek to make an excessive or unfair profit"
Government action needs to be taken against any excessive or unfair profit. Perhaps you can define "excessive" and "unfair," and provide a real or hypothetical example.
Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress »

bobevenson wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:Profiteering: (verb) "make or seek to make an excessive or unfair profit"
Government action needs to be taken against any excessive or unfair profit. Perhaps you can define "excessive" and "unfair," and provide a real or hypothetical example.
Excessive: (adj.) more than is necessary, normal, or desirable; immoderate.

Unfair: (adj.) not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.

Real world example: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/mar ... /31148137/.

You didn't answer my question, Bob. What would the AEP have done (were it in power in 2008) when the market was seriously unstable?
bobevenson
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by bobevenson »

Gary Childress wrote:
bobevenson wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:Profiteering: (verb) "make or seek to make an excessive or unfair profit"
Government action needs to be taken against any excessive or unfair profit. Perhaps you can define "excessive" and "unfair," and provide a real or hypothetical example.
Excessive: (adj.) more than is necessary, normal, or desirable; immoderate.

Unfair: (adj.) not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.

Real world example: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/mar ... /31148137/.

You didn't answer my question, Bob. What would the AEP have done (were it in power in 2008) when the market was seriously unstable?
a) Your real-world example is neither excessive nor unfair, and the proof is that nobody held a gun to anybody's head like socialists figuratively do, and b) please let me know specifically what "seriously unstable" market condition you want me to address.
FlashDangerpants
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

bobevenson wrote:
FlashDangerpants wrote:The Soviet Union never made the factories better at making stuff...
They invented and manufactured the AK-47, the greatest personal arms weapon of all time, and used around the world.
Quite true. I should really have made note of a few exemptions given that the Soviets were good at non consumer products such as military tech and space stuff and some medical engineering. In these instances the buying organisation had political clout and was able to act much like consumers do in capitalist societies and so the end product had to actually meet some laws of demand that included quality rather than quota.
Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress »

bobevenson wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:
bobevenson wrote:Government action needs to be taken against any excessive or unfair profit. Perhaps you can define "excessive" and "unfair," and provide a real or hypothetical example.
Excessive: (adj.) more than is necessary, normal, or desirable; immoderate.

Unfair: (adj.) not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.

Real world example: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/mar ... /31148137/.

You didn't answer my question, Bob. What would the AEP have done (were it in power in 2008) when the market was seriously unstable?
a) Your real-world example is neither excessive nor unfair, and the proof is that nobody held a gun to anybody's head like socialists figuratively do, and b) please let me know specifically what "seriously unstable" market condition you want me to address.
Fair enough, Bob. You win. If a CEO can get 800 times the pay of their average worker without calling the police in to extort it out of the hands of investors who sign his pay check, then everything must be perfectly fine. No such thing as democracy in the work place either I suppose.
Melchior
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Melchior »

Gary Childress wrote:
Fair enough, Bob. You win. If a CEO can get 800 times the pay of their average worker without calling the police in to extort it out of the hands of investors who sign his pay check, then everything must be perfectly fine. No such thing as democracy in the work place either I suppose.
You are out of your mind. You understand nothing.
Melchior
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Melchior »

Gary Childress wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:As far as what has gone wrong with Socialism. I think part of what has gone wrong with Socialism (at least where the US is concerned) is that our political culture seems to have a knee jerk reaction against it and it doesn't really know why. People protest it on various grounds, and when some of their protests are shown to be invalid, it doesn't seem to register.
They fear for their possessions.
It's a relatively valid thing to fear for in principle but it may not be entirely realistic for the average person to fear for possessions that they don't own. They don't own the means to production in their own communities and yet they are afraid that those who do might lose ownership of them. Change is also a very real fear. "What will happen if we change the way things are" is a valid fear. And of course those who own the means of production will readily tell us with 100% certainty it's all doom and gloom if they loose their possession of those means. But who knows...
Go to Cuba or North Korea.
FlashDangerpants
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

I never worked in a democracy. I know this because in every job I've had there was some dude who had a bigger say than me, and usually he had some other dude above that who had a bigger say too.

Before I worked I used to go to a place called a school, and in there was a teacher person who seemed to always have a bigger say in what we learned than I did.

I didn't realise that every situation in life was supposed to be democratic.
Melchior
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Melchior »

FlashDangerpants wrote:I never worked in a democracy. I know this because in every job I've had there was some dude who had a bigger say than me, and usually he had some other dude above that who had a bigger say too.

Before I worked I used to go to a place called a school, and in there was a teacher person who seemed to always have a bigger say in what we learned than I did.

I didn't realise that every situation in life was supposed to be democratic.
Right!
Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress »

Melchior wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:
Fair enough, Bob. You win. If a CEO can get 800 times the pay of their average worker without calling the police in to extort it out of the hands of investors who sign his pay check, then everything must be perfectly fine. No such thing as democracy in the work place either I suppose.
You are out of your mind. You understand nothing.
Are you disagreeing with Bob and me then? Is a CEO getting 800 times the pay of their average worker not perfectly fine? Should there be democracy in the workplace? :?
Melchior
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Melchior »

Gary Childress wrote:
Melchior wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:
Fair enough, Bob. You win. If a CEO can get 800 times the pay of their average worker without calling the police in to extort it out of the hands of investors who sign his pay check, then everything must be perfectly fine. No such thing as democracy in the work place either I suppose.
You are out of your mind. You understand nothing.
Are you disagreeing with Bob and me then? Is a CEO getting 800 times the pay of their average worker not perfectly fine? Should there be democracy in the workplace? :?

Are you disagreeing with Bob and me then?

No, just with you

Is a CEO getting 800 times the pay of their average worker not perfectly fine?

It is perfectly fine.

Should there be democracy in the workplace?

No.
Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress »

Melchior wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:
Melchior wrote:You are out of your mind. You understand nothing.
Are you disagreeing with Bob and me then? Is a CEO getting 800 times the pay of their average worker not perfectly fine? Should there be democracy in the workplace? :?

Are you disagreeing with Bob and me then?

No, just with you

Is a CEO getting 800 times the pay of their average worker not perfectly fine?

It is perfectly fine.

Should there be democracy in the workplace?

No.
In what way are you disagreeing with me? Since I have conceded that CEOs getting 800 times the pay of the average worker is perfectly fine and there is no democracy in the workplace, it seems we are in agreement. :?
Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress »

FlashDangerpants wrote:I never worked in a democracy. I know this because in every job I've had there was some dude who had a bigger say than me, and usually he had some other dude above that who had a bigger say too.

Before I worked I used to go to a place called a school, and in there was a teacher person who seemed to always have a bigger say in what we learned than I did.

I didn't realise that every situation in life was supposed to be democratic.
I've never worked in a democratic workplace either. The lion's share of my work experience has been under condition of being told what to do. I've had jobs that told me when I could go to the bathroom. I understand it's worse in the military. Once upon a time it was deemed perfectly acceptable for human beings to own other human beings as slaves. It seems that civilization has made some progress since then. The point I'm trying to make is that "I never worked in a democracy" in and of itself doesn't say much of logical significance. If there is an issue with democratizing the workplace then it seems to me that the issue must be elsewhere.
bobevenson
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by bobevenson »

Gary Childress wrote:Fair enough, Bob. You win. If a CEO can get 800 times the pay of their average worker without calling the police in to extort it out of the hands of investors who sign his pay check, then everything must be perfectly fine. No such thing as democracy in the work place either I suppose.
Gary, you seem to think CEOs really don't do anything at all except sit around and collect fat paychecks. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress »

bobevenson wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:Fair enough, Bob. You win. If a CEO can get 800 times the pay of their average worker without calling the police in to extort it out of the hands of investors who sign his pay check, then everything must be perfectly fine. No such thing as democracy in the work place either I suppose.
Gary, you seem to think CEOs really don't do anything at all except sit around and collect fat paychecks. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I assume they work like everyone else does.
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