Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

How should society be organised, if at all?

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bobevenson
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by bobevenson » Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:48 pm

bobevenson wrote:Why don't you tell me how the county or city collects real estate property taxes. Do they use a ballpoint pen, or a gun?

Obvious Leo
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Obvious Leo » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:22 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:Do you currently pay your taxes? When was the last time anyone put a gun to your head and told you to pay taxes? If no one put a gun to your head to pay those taxes and you paid them, then those taxes must be justified. So don't complain anymore about taxes.
Gary, please be serious. If you refuse to pay your taxes or evade them, the government won't put a gun to your head, but they'll certainly put you behind bars.
Are you fucking serious, shithead??? Between 21 and 34 TRILLION dollars in taxes are evaded by the robber barons of this world ANNUALLY!!!

What jail are they in?

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by bobevenson » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:10 pm

Obvious Leo wrote:Are you fucking serious, shithead??? Between 21 and 34 TRILLION dollars in taxes are evaded by the robber barons of this world ANNUALLY!!! What jail are they in?
What kind of socialist dream world do you live in? Oh, I forgot, Australia.

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Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:28 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote:If this plan were implemented but turned out to have deleterious effects on the running of companies by making them less capable of generating efficiencies that would put those companies at a disadvantage to smaller competitors who didn't have to worry about electing managers.
I've seen some unrealistic promises made to investors by CEOs of big companies in order to rally their support and their money. The "fertilizer" usually seems to run down hill until everyone in the company is at each other's throats trying to meet quotas, bending or breaking laws in the process. It's like a zoo with caged animals inside. There's a very good reason why many people opt out of the large corps for small business so that they can escape the rat race of the major corporations. And major corporations do their best to squash the small businesses around them. ASSUMING that what you say is true, if small entrepreneurial businesses do benefit from the democratization of larger entities would it be such a bad thing?

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by FlashDangerpants » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:31 pm

Well they would benefit because they aren't democratic. So in your terms I would assume that you don't like that result.

The capitalist system is pretty effective at flushing out, restructuring and blatantly dismembering badly run companies. That is one of its primary strengths. Investors are expected to evaluate business plans and undertake due diligence. Sometimes they still lose out, but that is the point of the Equity Risk Premium, as well as lots of laws to prevent fraud.

I think you are ignoring my earlier advice to to consider what are the strengths of the institutions you are trying to abandon rather than just what you don't like about them. It was honest advice, you aren't Bob so I don't feel any particular reason to trap you into errors.

There are lots of businesses structured successfully along socialist lines. Mostly these are collectives though, not large corporations with distant shareholders. When it works, it's usually because the owners are the employees and typically also the founders of those groups. Or because they operate in a locality or industry where relatively low levels of pooled capital produce effective results.

Modern corporate capitalism has evolved a lot of strategies to overcome something called the Agency Problem. It's a fundamental issue affecting all companies eventually, probably with no ideal one size fits all fix. You are proposing a solution to other problems that would exacerbate that issue though by forcing the agent to please competing masters in a way that discriminates heavily against owners and investors. The only rational response on their part is to withdraw investment and put it elsewhere. Unless you "democratise" their actual money as well as the governance of their companies. That seems like a step you are unwilling to take (and which tends to require bloody revolution).
Last edited by FlashDangerpants on Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:53 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote:Well they would benefit because they aren't democratic. So in your terms I would assume that you don't like that result.

The capitalist system is pretty effective at flushing out, restructuring and blatantly dismembering badly run companies. That is one of its primary strengths.

I think you are ignoring my earlier advice to to consider what are the strengths of the institutions you are trying to abandon rather than just what you don't like about them. It was honest advice, you aren't Bob so I don't feel any particular reason to trap you into errors.

There are lots of businesses structured successfully along socialist lines. Mostly these are collectives though, not large corporations with distant shareholders. When it works, it's usually because the owners are the employees and typically also the founders of those groups. Or because they operate in a locality or industry where relatively low levels of pooled capital produce effective results.

Modern corporate capitalism has evolved a lot of strategies to overcome something called the Agency Problem. It's a fundamental issue affecting all companies eventually, probably with no ideal one size fits all fix. You are proposing a solution to other problems that would exacerbate that issue though by forcing the agent to please competing masters in a way that discriminates heavily against owners and investors. The only rational response on their part is to withdraw investment and put it elsewhere. Unless you "democratise" their actual money as well as the governance of their companies. That seems like a step you are unwilling to take (and which tends to require bloody revolution).
Sounds like you are correct. Point conceded.

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by FlashDangerpants » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:56 am

Gary Childress wrote: Sounds like you are correct. Point conceded.
Well that threw me. As a rule I am such a complete dick that I never see that sort of response oO

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Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress » Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:10 am

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Gary Childress wrote: Sounds like you are correct. Point conceded.
Well that threw me. As a rule I am such a complete dick that I never see that sort of response oO
Well, there are bigger "jerks" out there. So don't knock yourself too much. :)

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Obvious Leo » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:47 pm

Gary. It is commonplace in your country to conflate socialism with Marxism, which is a desperately anachronistic way to interpret socialism as it is practiced in a modern liberal democracy. Perhaps the most erudite debunking of Marxism which I've ever read was "The Opium of the Intellectuals" by Raymond Aron, who saw it more as a theology than a coherent procedure of economic thought which could underpin a free society. As a prominent member of the post-war French "gauchiste" Aron was the antithesis of Sartre but a socialist through and through nevertheless. His innate humanism shines through with great decorum in a literary style which you might find very engaging so I recommend him to your interest.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:14 pm

bobevenson wrote:Jesus Christ, are you motherfuckers so dense that you can't see the light of day through the darkness of your night vision? Socialism is all about the government taking one person's money to give to somebody else. And it's morons like you that allow this criminal activity to continue!
What you seem to not understand is that there really is no me, me, me. The more global warming takes hold, the more nuclear weapons there are, the more people there are, the more intelligent we become, the more we evolve, the more the world gets smaller, the more we're beginning to understand that we are one thing, one entity, we are human, unfortunately, the best stewards/shepherds this symbiotic biosphere has a chance to benefit from, if we can just finally get our heads out of our arse.

And I know for a fact that this fact that I've just presented, shall definitely go right over your head. You'll even be so dense as to tell yourself that it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, a testament to your daftness. That Bob Evenson can't see life for him self, you've been displaying for all to see, since you first joined the PNF. Which is one of the main reasons why many give you so much crap. A prophet, your ass! Your words usually the epitome of oxymorons. Of course you'd fit in just fine, hundreds of years ago. Your thinking's antiquated, Bob! Philosophy has left you behind. Nothing personal Bob, I'm just reporting on what you demonstrate, in the face of modern day discovery.

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by bobevenson » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:46 pm

Again, do you challenge my contention that Socialism is all about the government forcibly taking one person's money and giving it to somebody else? Just a simple yes or no will suffice if you don't mind.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Arising_uk » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:29 pm

No.

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Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:49 pm

bobevenson wrote:Again, do you challenge my contention that Socialism is all about the government forcibly taking one person's money and giving it to somebody else? Just a simple yes or no will suffice if you don't mind.
I don't think it's an accurate statement, Bob. I would say even communism is not ALL about forcibly taking one person's money and giving it to somebody else. There are other aspects to it and reasons for it. Under communism (in theory), if things are shared communally and no one owns anything, including money, then it's even sort of a misnomer to say that anyone has any money to call their own which can be taken from them.

As for socialism it could depend upon how it is administered. People could be entitled to their money but things like factories and banks might be socially owned and operated and not for sale to individuals.

The US economy as it stands today is somewhat "socialized" and does some degree of taking some people's money and giving it to someone else. For example, some of my taxes have possibly been taken out of my "pocket" at threat of imprisonment and given to you, if it is the case that you collect any sort of welfare at all. When you were younger your taxes were used to help someone else. I have no problem with my taxes going to someone who needs a hand. It's not my desire to see others starve to death. I've paid taxes all my life and I don't whine and complain about it so long as they are used to help others who need it or to pay the costs of social goods such as roads, schools, infrastructure, etc.

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by bobevenson » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:53 pm

Arising_uk wrote:No.
Thank you for your support.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:56 pm

bobevenson wrote:Again, do you challenge my contention that Socialism is all about the government forcibly taking one person's money and giving it to somebody else? Just a simple yes or no will suffice if you don't mind.
I believe most are thinking of the actuality of it once it's in place, not how to go about transitioning from our current selfish greedy capitalist systems to the more cooperative, compassionate, loving, and selfless, 'all for one, one for all' mentality.

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