Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

How should society be organised, if at all?

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:01 pm

"If your business were "socialized" I would assume failure of the business would affect everyone in the company pretty much equally."

The assumption being all contributed equally, all being equally responsible.

This could, perhaps, apply to some business, but certainly not all.

My brother, for example, is a crop duster (an ag pilot). If he doesn't fly, no money comes in (he's not easily replaced). If his loader truck crew (the guys who load the hopper) don't work, they can be replaced. You get my point? Not all work is equal, not all contributions are equal, not all interest is equal, not all capability is equal.

Why should the least capable, the least willing, he or she who contributes least, have an equal share or say in the business? Put another way: why should the one who's only fit to sweep the floors have an equal footing with the designer or builder of the product or service?

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:07 pm

"Human nature is essentially social cooperation."

Sure, but there's no baseline to refer to. Some folks can't get through a day without the company and help of others, while others have to grit their their teeth for being in unwanted company and being subject to unneeded assistance.

Some folks can't do it alone and some folks can.

If capitalism is viewed as sacrificing the many in favor of one, most certainly socialism is the death of the one in favor of the many...all well and good for the many, but not so good for 'me'.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:28 pm

Cooperation and competition are both survival strategies. Some folks do better at one than the other, but both are equally valid and both can be abused or taken to absurd ends. And don't get me started on the brutal, solitary animals that can't cooperate naturally and will not compete in a wholesome way...such folks are deviant and should be locked up or shot. No one is safe with those things around. Get rid of 'them' and clean up the playing field.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:37 pm

The animal is largely fearful and now we have giant mushrooms to fear. Is it any wonder that the chaos in the minds of many exists? The truth of the day is contrary to socialism, because capitalism has created all those things that have been added to natures naturalness that challenges each individuals survival. Life on planet earth never really needed additional challenges to it's existence. I'm telling you that fear has allowed many to become that which they feared. Insanity in the face of the miracle of life, has always been realized by the 'most' fearful of us all. For socialism to work we all have to 'trust' one another, have to 'love' one another, have to love this 'miracle' of life. And we have to visit this reality of the universe every day! Then and only then, us admitting this universal truth of things, while helping those that don't, to understand it, is the only chance we have of being the greatest leaders, shepherds and society that has ever existed on planet earth. Once the absolute truth of our existence is admitted, known, and worshiped by all everyday, we can finally have true socialism where everyone's survival is guaranteed as much as humanly possible, all are equal, no one having any more or less importance in the world. The life on planet earth finally seen as the one symbiotic biosphere that in absolute truth it actually is.

Capitalism has soured our reason to be, actually going so far as to challenge our being.

All knowing and admitting the absolute truth of the universe, thus the truth of our existence on planet earth, is the cure! The one thing we all have in common!

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Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:40 pm

henry quirk wrote:Why should the least capable, the least willing, he or she who contributes least, have an equal share or say in the business? Put another way: why should the one who's only fit to sweep the floors have an equal footing with the designer or builder of the product or service?
Again, socialism most readily applies to large scale business. I see little evidence that the same issues don't also occur under the present system in the US. Investors don't contribute much to the making of a product. CEOs and upper managers probably don't contribute a great deal, at least not in proportion to the compensation they often receive. I mean, if you're worried about such scenarios then maybe you should protest private ownership of large scale business?

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:49 pm

Gary,

I'm not defending 'corporation' here. I have significant problems with corporation as person, corporation as legal buffer or shelter, and with owners being distant from their employees.

This thread, however, is about what is, or went, wrong with socialism.

Mebbe some one wants to address what I posted, instead of sayin' 'yeah? well the current system sucks!'
Last edited by henry quirk on Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by henry quirk » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:52 pm

And, for the record, I favor individuals transacting with individuals...that is, I favor the open or unrestrained (and unprotected) market. Capitalism (by definition, all about the capital) leaves me cold.

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Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:56 pm

henry quirk wrote:Gary,

I'm not defending 'corporation' here. I have significants problems with corporation as person, corporation as legal buffer or shelter, and with owners being distant from their employees.

This thread, however, is about what is, or went, wrong with socialism.

Mebbe some one wants to address what I posted, instead of sayin' 'yeah? well the current system sucks!'
I've been addressing your issues. This response above seems like an evasion to me.

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Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:08 pm

As far as what has gone wrong with Socialism. I think part of what has gone wrong with Socialism (at least where the US is concerned) is that our political culture seems to have a knee jerk reaction against it and it doesn't really know why. People protest it on various grounds, and when some of their protests are shown to be invalid, it doesn't seem to register.

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by bobevenson » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:19 pm

Gary Childress wrote:Many people have followed the Golden Rule and done a lot of good for society. Many people have not and done a lot of malice for society.
My point is that looking out for yourself, the driving force of evolution, is more closely tied to capitalism than socialism. ¿Entiende usted, señor?
Last edited by bobevenson on Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:25 pm

bobevenson wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:Many people have followed the Golden Rule and done a lot of good for society. Many people have not and done a lot of malice for society.
My point is that looking out for yourself, the driving force of evolution is more closely tied to capitalism than socialism. ¿Entiende usted, señor?
As I already stated in a post above:
People are interested in themselves and their loved ones to a large extent. However, when people come together they are forced to interact with each other. It's not clear to me how socialism doesn't recognize that people are interested in themselves in any way fundamentally inferior to that of capitalism. For example under capitalism a single person can come to own the entire productive means of a community. That's in the interest of the single person but may not be in the interest of the rest of the community [i.e. other individuals].
In short I don't see how it's accurate to say that capitalism helps people look out for themselves more so than socialism. If the capitalist is looking out for himself then how does that benefit others who are powerless under his (or her) ownership of production?

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:28 pm

Gary Childress wrote:As far as what has gone wrong with Socialism. I think part of what has gone wrong with Socialism (at least where the US is concerned) is that our political culture seems to have a knee jerk reaction against it and it doesn't really know why. People protest it on various grounds, and when some of their protests are shown to be invalid, it doesn't seem to register.
They fear for their possessions.

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Obvious Leo » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:36 pm

bobevenson wrote:My point is that looking out for yourself, the driving force of evolution is more closely tied to capitalism than socialism.
Looking out for yourself is not the driving force of evolution, Bob, as any evolutionary biologist will tell you. The driving force of evolution is the ability of life to adapt to change.

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Gary Childress
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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by Gary Childress » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:37 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:As far as what has gone wrong with Socialism. I think part of what has gone wrong with Socialism (at least where the US is concerned) is that our political culture seems to have a knee jerk reaction against it and it doesn't really know why. People protest it on various grounds, and when some of their protests are shown to be invalid, it doesn't seem to register.
They fear for their possessions.
It's a relatively valid thing to fear for in principle but it may not be entirely realistic for the average person to fear for possessions that they don't own. They don't own the means to production in their own communities and yet they are afraid that those who do might lose ownership of them. Change is also a very real fear. "What will happen if we change the way things are" is a valid fear. And of course those who own the means of production will readily tell us with 100% certainty it's all doom and gloom if they loose their possession of those means. But who knows...

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Re: Socialism: What Has Gone Wrong?

Post by bobevenson » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:41 pm

Gary Childress wrote:In short I don't see how it's accurate to say that capitalism helps people look out for themselves more so than socialism.
Socialists want to take money out of your wallet to give to somebody else. That goes against capitalism and evolution itself!

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