Why are bombs OK, but guns bad?

[Greta]

Cynically (and fully in keeping with the in-forum view of Americans), we're too fucking primitive to abide the loss of our boom sticks.

All this intensity over a little regulation. Aust & the UK don't deny people their guns. Heaps of people have guns. Just that their use is more strictly regulated. Most of you could still keep your weapons, but you'd be a bit less free in how you store, use and account for them. You would also live in a happier and safer society. Theoretically.

I do agree that the horse has bolted for the US, though. It appears that once gun ownership reaches a critical mass there is no turning back. That is why it's so essential for countries like the UK and Australia to resist the push of our gun lobbyists. I don't think most of the lobbyists understand what hell they would unleash. Or maybe they do? A chaotic society is one that favours those with "boom sticks" and know how to use them, so in a high density gun society the current shooters would become the big fish.

It's basically a push for an unearned increase in status and ideally they should be determinedly resisted by all those who prefer relative order and peace.

[Obvious Leo]

I do agree that the horse has bolted for the US, though. It appears that once gun ownership reaches a critical mass there is no turning back.

I made a similar point a number of posts back, although I disagree that the situation is irreversible. However the only way to have Canute turn back the irrepressible tide is through a grassroots bottom-up movement where it is the people who lead the demand for change. This is what happened in Australia and it's worth remembering that this change occurred under the stewardship of the most conservative government in our nation's history and I know of no effective movement seeking to relax our gun laws as they currently stand. It can be done and there simply exists no valid reason why it couldn't be done in America just as easily as it was done here.

The reason why both Trump and Sanders have been so successful in the current presidential campaign is that they both touch the same nerve which is resonating strongly with the American people. The people have lost faith in their government institutions and these two blokes have exposed their system of government as nothing more than an institutionalised racket where the elected leaders are nothing more than the elected followers. Unfortunately they are NOT following the wishes of the people who elected them but rather the wishes of the corporate bandits who funded their paths to office.

Sadly I also agree with henry. Once the Trump and Sanders vaudeville act has run its due course it'll once again be business as usual and the failed state that is the US government will once again understand that he who pays the piper calls the tune and thus will once again trample all over the rights and aspirations of the American people. I may appear like just another yank-basher but this is far from being the case. I love and admire the American people, and I reckon that they deserve much better than they get from their leaders, but the fact remains that in a democracy the people will only ever receive the quality of government which they demand for themselves. They need to man up and remind their leaders just exactly who it is they're supposed to be working for.

[Hobbes' Choice]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... truck.html

Oh come on, too funny for words.

Makes you believe that there is at the very least a 'God' with an ironic sense of humour.

I thought this might be the story of a baby taking a gun out of his mother's handbag in Walmart and killing her with it, from last year.
A baby with a gun trumps the intelligence of a moronic woman who wants the right to bear arms.

[henry quirk]

"I reckon that they deserve much better than they get"

No, America is getting exactly what it deserves.

Americans have allowed themselves to be boondoggled into a hole, harangued into a corner, and domesticated into the pen.

Ridiculous figures from parties large and small are taken as serious 'solutions' instead of as the employees they're meant to be.

Simply: most folks wanna be directed instead of self-directing and there's a whole whack of other folks more than happy to oblige them.

[henry quirk]

"All this intensity over a little regulation."

An experiment (for any one): pick an item, a tool, an instrument you find extremely useful, perhaps even find indespensable. Now, what's your response when folks who know little about such a device, promote the regulation (or even the banning) of that tool based on disembedded facts and one-size-should-fit-all thinking?

Most of you folks are communitarian. That is, you view society as an end, a goal.

Me, I see society as a context.

You'll sacrifice for a better goal; me, I'll work to improve the context but I won't sacrifice for the context as though it were sumthin' other than 'context'.

[FlashDangerpants]

An experiment (for any one): pick an item, a tool, an instrument you find extremely useful, perhaps even find indespensable. Now, what's your response when folks who know little about such a device, promote the regulation (or even the banning) of that tool based on disembedded facts and one-size-should-fit-all thinking?

There's little need to imagine too hard. Cars are heavily regulated. The government sets safety standards for design of automobiles, it is illegal to operate one while drunk or high. Owners must register them, and have insurance to use them. Some people are denied the right to have one at all. All of this is because they are in many ways dangerous.

But there's a wider value to cars, they give people greater mobility and enhance our lives in many ways. So there's compelling reasons not to ban them, but also not to leave them largely unregulated.

Why should guns be less regulated than cars? Mandatory liability insurance would probably lead you all to be a little more careful with the things. Isn't some additional care an objective to consider bothering to achieve?

[henry quirk]

It's not a one-size-fits-all world.

*shrug*

[FlashDangerpants]

Commercial aircraft are very heavily regulated too. I have no licence so I can't fly one (which is lucky, because I would crater it and kill people).

I'm also not allowed to build radiological equipment because I would give people cancer if I tried that.

I'm pretty sure if I tried to open a pharmacy and sell medical heroin, there would be some paperwork involved that I don't have there.

Sadly all those great ideas are blown, somebody should just hand me a sniper rifle, I'm sure I can be trusted with that.

[henry quirk]

I'm sorry you can't be trusted with anything more profound than a water gun.

I'm also sorry you're so willing to defer to the 'will of the people', or 'authority', or whatever tin god happens to be in vogue.

Not really seein' how your lack is my concern, though.

As I say up-thread: not really seein' any middle ground between us.

Gonna give this thread a break (from me)...nuthin' profitable comin' out of it (for me) 'cept a headache (from bangin' my head against a wall).

[SpheresOfBalance]

You had just raised the fact of the existence of nuclear weapons as if it has something to do with gun control around the house. If I missed the purpose of your argument, I feel justified, because it can only be poor.

It's typical, for humans to blame their ignorance on another, why should you be any different.

In the truth of the shadow of M.A.D., bickering about guns is ridiculous. Nucs are simply very big guns, I'll quote Rush (Neil) from the tune, "Manhattan Project."

Imagine a time when it all began
In the dying days of a war
A weapon that would settle the score
Whoever found it first would be sure to do their worst.
They always had before...

Imagine a man where it all began
A scientist pacing the floor
In each nation, always eager to explore
To build the best big stick
To turn the winning trick.
But this was something more...

Chorus:
The big bang took and shook the world
Shot down the rising sun
The end was begun and it hit everyone
When the chain reaction was done
The big shots tried to hold it back
Fools tried to wish it away
The hopeful depend on a world without end
Whatever the hopeless may say

Imagine a place where it all began
Gathered from across the land
To work in the secrecy of the desert sand
All of the brightest boys
To play with the biggest toys
More than they bargained for...

(Chorus)

Imagine a man when it all began
The pilot of "Enola Gay"
Flying out of the shockwave on that August day
All the powers that be, and the course of history,
Would be changed forevermore...

It's not the gun/nuc that is the problem, it's the man with his finger on the trigger that is in fact the problem, "Whoever found it first would be sure to do their worst, they always had before..." "The big shots tried to hold it back, fools tried to wish it away. The hopeful depend on a world without end, whatever the hopeless may say," "All the powers that be, and the course of history, would be changed forevermore...! Forevermore...!

I'm all for it, get rid of all weapons, then wipe everyone's minds clear of the fact that they ever existed, such that such things can never be revisited, and while we're at it, in their heads, make all humans docile, non competitive, only ever cooperative. Yeah, I'm all for it!!!

[SpheresOfBalance]

So, I should be punished today for what I might do tomorrow?

Henry. With all due respect for your stated position I simply cannot understand how you could define gun control measures as a "punishment". In the wrong hands guns are lethal weapons which are being used to wreak untold harm in your society. Surely a society has both the right and the obligation to protect itself by doing its best to ensure that such lethal weapons don't fall into the wrong hands.
Gun control is in fact practiced here in the US. They 'control' who is and is not allowed to own/carry guns.


In my country the burden of responsibility for gun ownership lies with the gun owner. Such a person must be able to demonstrate to all the members of the broader community that he or she is not a threat to them.
Same here.

Why do you regard this as an unfair restriction?

I don't believe he does. He believes he's more than capable of owning one responsibly.

[SpheresOfBalance]

The gun is a thing that you want and enjoy. You may even find it useful. But it's a stretch to describe it in terms of need.
Society gains nothing
Fuck society! The only thing that we ABSOLUTELY OWE one another is to LEAVE ONE ANOTHER ALONE! PERIOD!!!

much from you having that gun, even if you don't do anything wrong with it.
But if you do get up to something naughty, innocent lives stand to be lost.

You can complain about how unjust it might be, but I think other people have a right to take measures to ensure that you are not intent on murdering them and their children with it. "You can't interfere until after I go on a murder spree" is quite a weak objection really.

Your fear runs so deep that, you are blinded by your ignorance of simplicity. Hypothetical: "here take my gun, now all I have to do is spike the water supply with cyanide." You can't stop people from murdering people, if they are sick they shall find a way. Hardware store: pipe, end caps, fuse, black powder, nitro maybe, boom!

Guns are still used to hunt prey for food. Actually I think they should be really sporting and use knives and bow & arrows only, but some prefer the point and click solution. That's their decision not anyone elses.

A Canadian, off on foot, when a polar bear or griz comes along, whoops he doesn't have a gun, bear food he becomes! I guess in hindsight, if he was then capable, he'd rather he'd have carried one that day. No?

A gun can be protection from, who knows what? But one shall certainly find out, if they're lucky and carry one just in case.

[FlashDangerpants]

Your fear runs so deep that, you are blinded by your ignorance of simplicity. Hypothetical: "here take my gun, now all I have to do is spike the water supply with cyanide."

If we've neglected to regulate the supply of cyanide, that's a bit of a concern. We should make that illegal too. Thanks for that useful head's up.

You can't stop people from murdering people, if they are sick they shall find a way. Hardware store: pipe, end caps, fuse, black powder, nitro maybe, boom!

Well a gun is a tube with a little bomb in it that launches a projectile. So, just as you can so easily evade the law against purchasing and owning a bomb, obviously you will make your own gun. I'm sure it won't be quite as exquisitely lethal as the object you buy in a store, but those home made bombs you keep prattling on about aren't the same a Hellfire missile are they?

[SpheresOfBalance]

Your fear runs so deep that, you are blinded by your ignorance of simplicity. Hypothetical: "here take my gun, now all I have to do is spike the water supply with cyanide."

If we've neglected to regulate the supply of cyanide, that's a bit of a concern. We should make that illegal too. Thanks for that useful head's up.
You're missing the point, not everything can be stopped. Guns can't be stopped, unless you outlaw machine tools, steel, brass, lead, salt peter, sulfur, and charcoal. My point is that now that we have achieved the knowledge of such things, we can't unlearn them, they are unfortunately, here to stay. The worst possible scenario to me, is to be facing a nut job with such a weapon, with nothing to equalize the situation.

You can't stop people from murdering people, if they are sick they shall find a way. Hardware store: pipe, end caps, fuse, black powder, nitro maybe, boom!

Well a gun is a tube with a little bomb in it that launches a projectile. So, just as you can so easily evade the law against purchasing and owning a bomb, obviously you will make your own gun. I'm sure it won't be quite as exquisitely lethal as the object you buy in a store, but those home made bombs you keep prattling on about aren't the same a Hellfire missile are they?

Nope, and a hand gun is pale indeed by comparison to an intercontinental ballistic missile complete with nuclear warhead. Or for that matter, your local nuclear power plant; Radiation, anyone?

Death is everywhere, face it. If only a Texas sized asteroid was to hit our planet, that would make us all equal, none of us having any tactical advantage. That is what you fear, of course, tactical advantage, yet we're not all born of the exact same size and strength. I know, me too! So what, with nothing else left external to us to ban, would you then want to outlaw huge strong people, as surely they could kill you?

It's absurd, that today we're beings steeped in fear, due to those inventions/discoveries born of being steeped in fear, all the way back to the beginning of our time, nuclear age, black powder age, iron age, bronze age, copper age. Fear is the culprit, I tell you; it's fear! With M.A.D.ness surrounding us, it can only ever be fear!

The problem is with the flawed human animal.

[FlashDangerpants]

What complete nonsense. Asteroids, MAD, alien invasion, swine flu and the heat death of the universe have got nothing to do with this, stop embarrassing yourself.

The problem with guns is that you own one (I assume), and if I say something mean to you on the internet, you might just lose your shit and go and kill a bunch of people. It's easy, because you keep a weapon suitable for killing lots of people just lying around ready for the day when your piss just boils that way.

Sure, if we took your gun away, you could still fashion a weapon to kill people with. But it would take a lot more work. I suppose you could quickly duct tape a bread knife to broom handle and try go on a murder rampage your home made spear, but that would be pretty shit compared to what you could get up to with some kind of semi automatic thingy. Those kids who shoot up your schools so frequently wouldn't get on the news if they had turned up armed only with a pair of scissors at the end of a stick.

You have highly efficient have murder weapons packaged up as consumer goods and sold to any old mad bastard without consequence. These aren't equivalent to actual consumer goods that happen to be convertible to inefficient murder weapons.