The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

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Obvious Leo
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by Obvious Leo »

Arising_uk wrote:
bobevenson wrote:I'm talking about people eligible for bail. That being said, you simply cannot be as stupid as you appear, but I just can't come up with another explanation!
That's because you are hard of thought bobby. What I'm having trouble with is what you are describing as I have no cultural reference for what you describe as I think in 'socialist' UK those eligible for bail get bail as we have various types of bail. Are you saying in your capitalist heaven its only cash for freedom?
This is the bit that I don't get. I don't think large cash sums are generally required for bail in this country and that in most cases people who are remanded on bail are more likely to be required to surrender their passports and/or report at regular intervals to their local police station simply to verify that they haven't absconded. The whole idea of a bail hearing is to assess only two things, as far as I'm aware. What is the risk that the person charged is a threat to the community and what is the risk that he will try to evade his responsibilities under the law?

Whatever the fuck Bob might be banging on about it certainly has no relevance in my country which generally adopts a very pragmatic approach to the principle of the rule of law, at least for middle class white people. However we do have something in common with the US in that we invariably lock up black people for offences for which white people would escape incarceration. However unlike the US we don't grant our courts the right to murder our citizens.
BigWhit
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by BigWhit »

People's natural reaction to cognitive dissonance?
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Arising_uk
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by Arising_uk »

bobevenson wrote:Also, it's shameful how stupidity seems to be increasing in this forum since you joined.
:lol: Pots and glasshouse or wot!!
bobevenson
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by bobevenson »

Obvious Leo wrote:I don't think large cash sums are generally required for bail in this country.
The amount of bail is immaterial. If a person charged with a crime is allowed to be released on bail, any amount is improper!
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Arising_uk
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by Arising_uk »

bobevenson wrote:The amount of bail is immaterial. If a person charged with a crime is allowed to be released on bail, any amount is improper!
How can it be immaterial? As it appears that in your country the concept of bail is the payment of a surety.
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by bobevenson »

Arising_uk wrote:
bobevenson wrote:The amount of bail is immaterial. If a person charged with a crime is allowed to be released on bail, any amount is improper!
How can it be immaterial? As it appears that in your country the concept of bail is the payment of a surety.
What I mean is that if a person is eligible to be released (not being considered a menace to society), he should not have to pay any amount of so-called bail money to supposedly ensure that he shows up for trial.
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Arising_uk
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by Arising_uk »

bobevenson wrote:What I mean is that if a person is eligible to be released (not being considered a menace to society), he should not have to pay any amount of so-called bail money to supposedly ensure that he shows up for trial.
Come live over here then. However, what do you call a 'menace to society'? Would a fraudster be considered as such? As if not and he is a successful one he might be the kind to very well disappear with his ill-gotten gains rather than face a possible custodial sentence. How would you deal with such?
BigWhit
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by BigWhit »

That person might not be eligible for release. If they're going to run or be a danger to society, you don't release them. Ofc, this isn't 100% fool proof. You can't predict precisely who will do what, but bail keeps perfectly harmless people behind bars or forces them to go to bonds issuers who charge a high interest rate so they don't lose their job(s). It is unnecessary and philosophically opposed to the idea of a free citizenry.
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Arising_uk
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by Arising_uk »

BigWhit wrote:That person might not be eligible for release. If they're going to run or be a danger to society, you don't release them. Ofc, this isn't 100% fool proof. You can't predict precisely who will do what, but bail keeps perfectly harmless people behind bars or forces them to go to bonds issuers who charge a high interest rate so they don't lose their job(s). It is unnecessary and philosophically opposed to the idea of a free citizenry.
I don't disagree that this appears to be an issue in your country, just thankful it doesn't appear to be a major one in mine. Although I'm not positive about this, just that bail bond issuers are not something I've heard about, nor bounty-hunters for that matter.
BigWhit
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by BigWhit »

Well the UK never had to deal with the wild west, I guess...
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by bobevenson »

BigWhit wrote:Well the UK never had to deal with the wild west, I guess...
But it had to deal with America in 1776 and lost, but it tried to make amends for it more recently by beating up Argentina over its Falkland Islands claim.
Obvious Leo
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by Obvious Leo »

Arising_uk wrote:
BigWhit wrote:That person might not be eligible for release. If they're going to run or be a danger to society, you don't release them. Ofc, this isn't 100% fool proof. You can't predict precisely who will do what, but bail keeps perfectly harmless people behind bars or forces them to go to bonds issuers who charge a high interest rate so they don't lose their job(s). It is unnecessary and philosophically opposed to the idea of a free citizenry.
I don't disagree that this appears to be an issue in your country, just thankful it doesn't appear to be a major one in mine. Although I'm not positive about this, just that bail bond issuers are not something I've heard about, nor bounty-hunters for that matter.
Loathe though I am to make the concession I'm willing to grant that Bob probably has a point. However the systems of jurisprudence in Australia are very closely modelled on those of the UK and the point which Bob is making is simply not applicable in countries like ours, where the interests of commerce are subject to the rule of law rather than the rule of law being tailored to suit the interests of commerce.

Bob might also like to comment on another appalling injustice in the land of the free whereby the rule of law has been egregiously compromised to provide a slave labour force for private commercial interests. I refer of course to the unconscionably high rates of incarceration of ethnic minorities, the mentally ill and the economically underprivileged. A third of all the imprisoned persons in the world are imprisoned in US jails, mostly for crimes which would never attract a custodial sentence in more socially enlightened countries.
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by bobevenson »

Obvious Leo wrote:Bob might also like to comment on another appalling injustice in the land of the free whereby the rule of law has been egregiously compromised to provide a slave labour force for private commercial interests.
I believe you have been drinking ouzo when you should have been playing Ouzo.
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Arising_uk
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by Arising_uk »

Oh well, the loon is back.
bobevenson wrote:
BigWhit wrote:Well the UK never had to deal with the wild west, I guess...
But it had to deal with America in 1776 and lost, ...
Only because of the French and Spanish and the ex-British army settlers, as your 'minutemen' were only good for terrorizing loyalists.
but it tried to make amends for it more recently by beating up Argentina over its Falkland Islands claim.
Not quite, a fascist military junta invaded international sovereign territory bobby, so Margret Thatcher pretty much had no choice, a choice that pretty much put the end to that junta bobby, y'now a junta who America supported in its dirty war death squads and all. But then you're pretty much the little fascist yourself aren't you bobby.
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Arising_uk
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Re: The Judicial Concepts of Entering a Plea and Making Bail Are Improper

Post by Arising_uk »

bobevenson wrote:I believe you have been drinking ouzo when you should have been playing Ouzo.
I believe you are avoiding his point.
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