~ The Case For Socialism ~

[Obvious Leo]

Are you seriously claiming that China is an example of free-market capitalism, Bob???

Let me put it this way, Leo, Hong Kong has such a successful economy that China lets it operate autonomously.

No it doesn't. The Hong Kong economy is as rigidly under government control as is any other economy in the world. The reason why the Hong Kong economy operates differently from the mainland economy is simply because it is more closely interwoven into the wider globalised corporate network and this is nothing more than an accident of history.

[Ansiktsburk]

There never has been a fully free market except at exceptional times in history.

A free market give a continual upwards pressure on profits, and down wards pressure on wages and prices. It tends to deregulation unsafe work practices and exploitation. This is self implosive.
The pressure for land to be seized for profit robs people of their independence and alienation from their own trades and the inability of small business to compete with an ever growing and polarising economy guarentees growing inequality and poverty.

If you want to go back the the 18thC then fine, but I'd rather invoke democratic power to mitigate against excessive inequality and alienation.

But I do not expect a brain dead kunt like yourself to have the capability to think this through.

And here we have another angry young gentleman.
Will you not agree to that a free market is an ingredient in the mix in a successful community, or world?

[Hobbes' Choice]

There never has been a fully free market except at exceptional times in history.

A free market give a continual upwards pressure on profits, and down wards pressure on wages and prices. It tends to deregulation unsafe work practices and exploitation. This is self implosive.
The pressure for land to be seized for profit robs people of their independence and alienation from their own trades and the inability of small business to compete with an ever growing and polarising economy guarentees growing inequality and poverty.

If you want to go back the the 18thC then fine, but I'd rather invoke democratic power to mitigate against excessive inequality and alienation.

But I do not expect a brain dead kunt like yourself to have the capability to think this through.

And here we have another angry young gentleman.
Will you not agree to that a free market is an ingredient in the mix in a successful community, or world?

The only time there has been a free market in history it was always run on slavery, and piracy.
I agree that a regulated market with controls and redistribution is necessary and such a system has always been needed to progress the social economy.

[SpheresOfBalance]

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THE CASE FOR SOCIALISM
by ALAN MAASS, editor, Socialist Worker



Human need, not corporate greed.


Socialism is based on the idea that we should use the vast resources of society to meet people’s needs.


It seems so obvious--if people are hungry, they should be fed; if people are homeless, we should build homes for them; if people are sick, the best medical care should be available to them. A socialist society would take the immense wealth of the rich and use it to meet the basic needs of all society. The money wasted on weapons could be used to end poverty, homelessness, and all other forms of scarcity.


There’s no blueprint for what a socialist society will look like. That will be determined by the generations to come who are living in one. But it seems obvious that such a society would guarantee every person enough to eat and a sturdy roof over their heads. The education system would be made free--and reorganized so that every child’s ability is encouraged. Health care would be made free and accessible to all, as would all utilities like gas and electricity. Public transportation would also be made free--and more practical and efficient. All of these basic needs would become top priorities.


A socialist society would not only take away the existing wealth of the ruling class, but also its economic control over the world. The means of production--the factories, offices, mines, and so on--would be owned by all of society. Under the current system, important economic decisions are left to the chaos of the free market and to the blind competition of capitalists scrambling for profits. Under socialism, the majority of people would plan democratically what to do and how do it.








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Sounds great Bill, but personally I would rather a new word be used, that is more appropriate, as I'm not sure such a 'similar' system could stand the baggage that socialism has picked up along the way.

But the reason something like that can't work now is because the human animal is currently far too basic, selfish, stupid, archaic, young, foolish, did I say selfish?, greedy, idiotic, dumb, egoistic, underdeveloped, BRAIN-DEAD! That solution can only be understood by a far more advanced species than humans!

I'm telling you, I really like those aliens of Steven Spielberg's creation in the movie A.I. It's only obvious they are socialist, well actually seemingly much further evolved than even that!

[Obvious Leo]

Sounds great Bill, but personally I would rather a new word be used,

I agree. Attaching a 19th century label to an economic order needed for the 21st century is unhelpful.

[bobevenson]

Are you seriously claiming that China is an example of free-market capitalism, Bob???

Let me put it this way, Leo, Hong Kong has such a successful economy that China lets it operate autonomously.

No it doesn't. The Hong Kong economy is as rigidly under government control as is any other economy in the world. The reason why the Hong Kong economy operates differently from the mainland economy is simply because it is more closely interwoven into the wider globalised corporate network and this is nothing more than an accident of history.

Mr. Oblivious, welcome to the real world:
"According to Index of Economic Freedom, Hong Kong has had the highest degree of economic freedom in the world since the inception of the Index in 1995. Its economy is governed under positive non-interventionism, and is highly dependent on international trade and finance." --Wikipedia

[Obvious Leo]

What the fuck is the Index of Economic Freedom, Bob. Please fill me in on what freedom means in this context because freedom is a slippery concept which means different things to different people.

[bobevenson]

What the fuck is the Index of Economic Freedom, Bob. Please fill me in on what freedom means in this context because freedom is a slippery concept which means different things to different people.

Jesus Christ, Oblivious, do I have to take you by the fucking hand like a two-year-old? Get off your fucking ass (oh, I'm sorry, arse) and look it up yourself!

[Obvious Leo]

I did look it up, Bob. The Index of Economic Freedom is a confection collectively invented by the Heritage Foundation and the Wall Street Journal. The Heritage Foundation is a gang of lunatic neo-conservatives who object to the very idea that anybody should stand between them and somebody else's money and the Wall Street Journal is its official propaganda organ. Their idea of freedom is that they can do whatever they fucking well like and anybody that tries to stop them is a communist.

[bobevenson]

I did look it up, Bob. The Index of Economic Freedom is a confection collectively invented by the Heritage Foundation and the Wall Street Journal. The Heritage Foundation is a gang of lunatic neo-conservatives who object to the very idea that anybody should stand between them and somebody else's money and the Wall Street Journal is its official propaganda organ. Their idea of freedom is that they can do whatever they fucking well like and anybody that tries to stop them is a communist.

I don't care if the study was designed by Joseph Stalin, do you have any problem with it?

"The Index's 2008 definition of economic freedom is "The highest form of economic freedom provides an absolute right of property ownership, fully realized freedoms of movement for labor, capital, and goods, and an absolute absence of coercion or constraint of economic liberty beyond the extent necessary for citizens to protect and maintain liberty itself."

The index scores nations on 10 broad factors of economic freedom using statistics from organizations like the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the Economist Intelligence Unit:

Business Freedom: Business freedom is a quantitative measure of the ability to start, operate, and close a business that represents the overall burden of regulation as well as the efficiency of government in the regulatory process.

Trade Freedom: Trade freedom is a composite measure of the absence of tariff
and non-tariff barriers that affect imports and exports of goods and services. Different imports entering a country can, and often do, face different tariffs.

Monetary Freedom: Monetary freedom combines a measure of price stability with an assessment of price controls. Both inflation and price controls distort market activity. Price stability without microeconomic intervention is the ideal state for the free market.

Government Size/Spending: This component considers the level of government expenditures as a percentage of GDP, including consumption and transfers, and accounts for the entire score.

Fiscal Freedom: Fiscal freedom is a measure of the tax burden imposed by government.

Property Rights: The property rights component is an assessment of the ability of individuals to accumulate private property, secured by clear laws that are fully enforced by the state.

Investment Freedom: In an economically free country, there would be no constraints on the flow of investment capital. Individuals and firms would be allowed to move their resources into and out of specific activities internally and across the country’s borders without restriction.

Financial Freedom: Financial freedom is a measure of banking efficiency as well as a measure of independence from government control and interference in the financial sector.

Freedom from Corruption: Corruption erodes economic freedom by introducing insecurity and uncertainty into economic relationships. The higher the level of corruption, the lower the level of overall economic freedom and the lower a country’s score.

Labor Freedom: The labor freedom component is a quantitative measure that looks into aspects of the legal and regulatory framework of a country’s labor market.

The 10 factors are averaged equally into a total score. Each one of the 10 freedoms is graded using a scale from 0 to 100, where 100 represents the maximum freedom. A score of 100 signifies an economic environment or set of policies that is most conducive to economic freedom. The methodology has shifted and changed as new data and measurements have become available, especially in the area of Labor freedom, which was given its own indicator spot in 2007." --Wikipedia

[Obvious Leo]

This is an impressive suite of freedoms awarded to the plutocracy but no mention is made of the freedoms which are thereby denied to every other bastard, Bob. What about the poor fucker who has to work for slave wages under dangerous conditions so that these arseholes can stash their loot into various tax-free havens around the world. What happened to his freedom, or indeed his right to the pursuit of happiness?

[bobevenson]

This is an impressive suite of freedoms awarded to the plutocracy but no mention is made of the freedoms which are thereby denied to every other bastard, Bob. What about the poor fucker who has to work for slave wages under dangerous conditions so that these arseholes can stash their loot into various tax-free havens around the world. What happened to his freedom, or indeed his right to the pursuit of happiness?

I believe the Index's definition of economic freedom answers your stupid question, my friend.

[Hobbes' Choice]

http://usuncut.com/world/here-are-9-rea ... -the-dust/

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[Bill Wiltrack]

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.....................................................Excellent comparison...





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[uwot]

Reverend Bob, are you sure the free market is such a good idea? After all, deregulation has resulted in the US being over $20 trillion in debt to financiers. That means that if you ever get a job, you will spend a portion of your working week just to earn the taxes to pay back the people who have exploited the free market. If you ever have children, so will they. And their children. And their children. And their children. And their children. And their children........... We haven't asked our descendants whether they can afford the free market. You're a prophet, Reverend Bob, how will they pay?