Egypt and democracy

[henry quirk]

"religion is the problem , until you acknowledge that , you will never solve the problem ,,,!!!"

After a fashion, you're exactly right.

The 'gods' of republicanism, democratism, conservatism, progressivism, etc. are just as demanding as that hoary thunderer of the old testament and the gentle forgiver of the new; just as demanding as the jewish g*d; just as demanding as allah.

Which is to say: pretty much most of the seven billion folks meandering around Earth have spook-filled heads (*'cause religion, politics, philosophies are all synonymous).

And: this -- "when you see wrong being done , if you can do something about it ,, you should ,,,!!!" -- is just as much hooey as all the rest...a dictum issued by the great 'god' humanitarianism.









*spare me the tired protests attempting to exempt philosophy…the man or woman who, for example, proclaims him- or her-self 'existentialist' is as spook-haunted as the man or woman who proclaims him- or her-self 'pentecostal'.

It's all shit.

[Godfree]

"religion is the problem , until you acknowledge that , you will never solve the problem ,,,!!!"

After a fashion, you're exactly right.

The 'gods' of republicanism, democratism, conservatism, progressivism, etc. are just as demanding as that hoary thunderer of the old testament and the gentle forgiver of the new; just as demanding as the jewish g*d; just as demanding as allah.

Which is to say: pretty much most of the seven billion folks meandering around Earth have spook-filled heads (*'cause religion, politics, philosophies are all synonymous).

And: this -- "when you see wrong being done , if you can do something about it ,, you should ,,,!!!" -- is just as much hooey as all the rest...a dictum issued by the great 'god' humanitarianism.
IF YOU SAW SOMEONE BEING ATTACKED WOULD YOU WALK PAST AND DO NOTHING ,,???








*spare me the tired protests attempting to exempt philosophy…the man or woman who, for example, proclaims him- or her-self 'existentialist' is as spook-haunted as the man or woman who proclaims him- or her-self 'pentecostal'.
I EXEMPT ME ,, I DON"T SPEAK FOR ANYONE ELSE
It's all shit.

So How Do We Sort The Shit ,
do we just accept is as un-fixable ,
that it is too big too hard and people are too dis-interested ,
or do we accept that we have to start somewhere , and acknowledging the reality of the situation ,
I think is the first step , to see religion as the problem ,
then we need to work out how to take away the powers that it has obtained over the centuries ,
I think we are going to need Atheist political parties , Atheist clubs and societies ,
if the government won't help fund it like it does for religion ,
then we need a few Bill Gates ,types to get on board and fund what needs to be funded ,
and eventually we would have a viable alternative ,
the Atheist club , or , the tired old religion , there should be a choice ,
western society does not offer this ,,,

[henry quirk]

"So How Do We Sort The Shit , do we just accept is as un-fixable"

If we have seven billion folks meanderin' around, and if the majority of that seven billion is screwed in the head, I'm inclined to lean toward 'unfixable'.

Seven billion folks, most enthralled to one spook or another (usually multiple spooks, or, multiple iterations of the same spook).

Good luck with the exorcism...

[Arising_uk]

The west seems to be losing the battle with religious fundamentalism because ,
we keep importing the madness ,
nearly all the migrants will be fundamentalists ,
refugee's , third world thinking , in large numbers every year entering our society ,
the Samoans would be a good example here in NZ ,
Auckland is the biggest Polynesian city in the world ,
and a large proportion of the suckers lining up at Destiny church ,
yep , Samoans , brown faces , and all tithing , parting with money in most cases ,
they can't afford ,

You appear to equate fundamentalism with religious belief?

What battle?

So How are we going to turn it around and get things back on the right track ,,????

Better living standards, jobs, rule of law, health, welfare and hygiene systems, TV, shopping centres, cinemas, education for women, state education that teaches comparative religion, democracy, etc, all appear to have played a role. Not forgetting years and years of internecine sectarian wars.

certainly not be accepting religion as credible ,

It is a very credible belief if you're bottom of the pile and realise that you're mortal and short-lived.

as crazy as it sounds it would appear you and I want the same thing ,
we just like arguing about how to achieve ,,???

See above.

,,,and ,,,wasn't it Henry the 8th that declared secular democracy ...

Think about it, why would a divinely appointed and anointed monarch declare a secular democracy? He wouldn't, he ceded from the Catholic Church and declared England a Protestant Christian nation with him as head of the church, the Church of England(CofE). He did this because Affairs of State overrode the strictures of the Catholic Church. i.e. he needed an heir not a bastard. Ironically enough we now think he also stayed a Catholic all his life.

[Godfree]

The west seems to be losing the battle with religious fundamentalism because ,
we keep importing the madness ,
nearly all the migrants will be fundamentalists ,
refugee's , third world thinking , in large numbers every year entering our society ,
the Samoans would be a good example here in NZ ,
Auckland is the biggest Polynesian city in the world ,
and a large proportion of the suckers lining up at Destiny church ,
yep , Samoans , brown faces , and all tithing , parting with money in most cases ,
they can't afford ,

You appear to equate fundamentalism with religious belief?

What battle?

So How are we going to turn it around and get things back on the right track ,,????

Better living standards, jobs, rule of law, health, welfare and hygiene systems, TV, shopping centres, cinemas, education for women, state education that teaches comparative religion, democracy, etc, all appear to have played a role. Not forgetting years and years of internecine sectarian wars.

certainly not be accepting religion as credible ,

It is a very credible belief if you're bottom of the pile and realise that you're mortal and short-lived.

as crazy as it sounds it would appear you and I want the same thing ,
we just like arguing about how to achieve ,,???

See above.

,,,and ,,,wasn't it Henry the 8th that declared secular democracy ...

Think about it, why would a divinely appointed and anointed monarch declare a secular democracy? He wouldn't, he ceded from the Catholic Church and declared England a Protestant Christian nation with him as head of the church, the Church of England(CofE). He did this because Affairs of State overrode the strictures of the Catholic Church. i.e. he needed an heir not a bastard. Ironically enough we now think he also stayed a Catholic all his life.

I accept your knowledge on English history is correct ,,
but I also see that as the turning point ,
maybe because Henry wore three hats ,
Head of the monarchy , head of the newly formed Church of England , but also ,
Head of State , and it was his role as head of state that became the ultimate authority ,
where'as before then , the church was the ultimate authority ,, maybe ,, ??

[Khalid]

The chances of secularism (which also includes the separation and sharing of power) taking hold there in the near future is remote. But in the far future it is possible.

In the near future there will be a new constitution including terms banning political parties based on religious bases and the Egyptians will say the last word about that through poll or ballot boxes .

But a lot of social upheaval and violence is going to have to occur first, like happened in Europe over the centuries.

Violence and terrorism won't last much in Egypt for two main reasons , firstly because vast majority of Egyptians are with the military and satisfied with the recent actions . Secondly , because the army and civil police are strong and big enough in number .

True and lasting democracy is impossible without secularism. If Egypt was a country of only one religion then secularism would not be a problem, because everybody would be of one mind and of one culture, wanting the same thing. In the West we have managed to develop a culture of inclusion and multiculturalism, where different ideas reconcile and coexist with each other. But Egypt and most of the Muslim/Arab world do not understand this culture. It is not in their blood, or DNA. They are still tribal. A major belief that continues to persist in this world, among tribes, is that either one rules or dies at the hands of another. Power sharing among tribes or political parties is not an option or a component, such as it is in the West.

The problem with liberalism or secularism in Egypt is not just because Arabs or muslims are tribal . I think it's also because of illiteracy and poverty. In Egypt the illiteracy rate is about 30% according to Wikipedia and with an estimated 35-40% of Egypt's population earning less than the equivalent of $2 a day . And after the 25 January revolution in 2011 , words like secularism and liberalism were not really familiar to Egyptians ears . And here came the role of extreme faction (I don't like to call them Islamists , because they are not more moslim than us) to play dirty games like saying " liberalism means homosexuality , liberalism equals atheism and etc" . But after a year of their rule Egyptians no longer believe them and we understand their real face .

If Morsi, the deposed president of Egypt, acted secular and shared power with his opponents he would still be president. His followers say he was democratically elected
so he should still be in office and not have been removed by the military. But he certainly didn't acted democratically in office. He consolidate power within his own tribe and like minded supporters. Democracy doesn't work that way. One problem is that even though Morsi was elected democratically the institutions to backup and uphold the democracy people voted for didn't exist to insure or implement it.

He was the president of his Jama'a "Organization" , not the president of all Egyptians . He worked only for the interest of his organization and opposed the judge .

[spike]

The problem with liberalism or secularism in Egypt is not just because Arabs or muslims are tribal . I think it's also because of illiteracy and poverty. In Egypt the illiteracy rate is about 30% according to Wikipedia and with an estimated 35-40% of Egypt's population earning less than the equivalent of $2 a day . And after the 25 January revolution in 2011 , words like secularism and liberalism were not really familiar to Egyptians ears . And here came the role of extreme faction (I don't like to call them Islamists , because they are not more moslim than us) to play dirty games like saying " liberalism means homosexuality , liberalism equals atheism and etc" . But after a year of their rule Egyptians no longer believe them and we understand their real face .

Khalid, you are right about illiteracy and poverty. But it is the system and the culture that have kept the rates of illiteracy and poverty so high, and have perpetuated them. If the system and culture was more open and inclusive, allowing as many people as possible to participate in a civil society, then those rates would be lower and less problematic.

I understand that the Egyptian Military controls a large segment of the economy, owning hotels and many of the means of production and distribution. This kind of monopoly makes it very difficult for individual entrepreneurs to establish themselves and compete. Reforming this is going to be a big problem since the Military is very reluctant to give up any powers.

[Godfree]

[quote="Khalid"][quote="spike"]
The chances of secularism (which also includes the separation and sharing of power) taking hold there in the near future is remote. But in the far future it is possible.

In the near future there will be a new constitution including terms banning political parties based on religious bases and the Egyptians will say the last word about that through poll or ballot boxes .

Well that might be too far , the west has it's ,
Christian Democrats , the right wing of western politics is religion ,
the old boys network and religion have represented the right wing of politics ,
as apposed to the left , liberal tree hugging hippies , who smoke pot ,,!!!
in the west , which is a society based on religious principles ,
be under no illusion here , the west is a religious dictatorship ,
it's just a christian dictatorship , Atheist are discriminated against in the west all the time ,
we have christian political parties , but no Atheist political parties ,
my secular government starts the day with a christian prayer,
If Egypt Could Stop Religious Political Parties From Standing For Elections ,
you may be the first country in the world to achieve that ,
and I would applaud , you would give me hope ,,
somebody has to be first ,
somebody has to find the balls to stand up to religion and take it down a peg or two ,
PLEASE DO IT

[Khalid]

Well that might be too far , the west has it's ,
Christian Democrats , the right wing of western politics is religion ,
the old boys network and religion have represented the right wing of politics ,
as apposed to the left , liberal tree hugging hippies , who smoke pot ,,!!!
in the west , which is a society based on religious principles ,
be under no illusion here , the west is a religious dictatorship ,
it's just a christian dictatorship , Atheist are discriminated against in the west all the time ,
we have christian political parties , but no Atheist political parties ,
my secular government starts the day with a christian prayer,
If Egypt Could Stop Religious Political Parties From Standing For Elections ,
you may be the first country in the world to achieve that ,
and I would applaud , you would give me hope ,,
somebody has to be first ,
somebody has to find the balls to stand up to religion and take it down a peg or two ,
PLEASE DO IT

It could be accepted in western countries to have Christian democratic parties but every country has it's own conditions. Egypt is a country with sectarian tension or sectarian sensitivity lets call it and if we allow Islamic parties then we should allow Christian or Orthodox parties and this could have dangerous effects on Egypt's future and security . So many politicians expect parties based on religion in Egypt to be banned yet Islamists can join or establish political parties that speaks only about politics and adopts political goals like improving medical care , education or whatever . parties that I can disagree with , without being cursed or called a dis-believer .

But on the other hand , I'm not an atheist and Egypt is a moslim country with muslim majority and this is our identity . I'm just against sandwiching politics with religion because the first is a dirty work that has no morals and the second is a holy thing that should be respected not mis-used .

[Godfree]

But on the other hand , I'm not an atheist and Egypt is a moslim country with muslim majority and this is our identity . I'm just against sandwiching politics with religion because the first is a dirty work that has no morals and the second is a holy thing that should be respected not mis-used .[/quote]

Well I'm an Atheist , and I live in a christian dominated society ,
politics is the job of running the country , passing laws , managing the economy ,
religion , is the work of scammers and snake oil salesmen ,
religion is fantasy being used as a control mechanism to control the stupid ,
the clever can work out it's a load of bull , I believe it was around Moses time that it was written ,
"a poor person sees religion as real,
a wealthy person sees religion as false ,
and a politician sees religion as useful" ,
it would appear Egypt will stay entrenched in the madness ,,!!!