All Hail Free Market Capitalism!

How should society be organised, if at all?

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ala1993
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Re: All Hail Free Market Capitalism!

Post by ala1993 »

bobevenson wrote:
You were born under free-market capitalism, have benefitted from it every day of your worthless life, but choose to bite the hand that feeds you, you ungrateful loser!
In fact, most of us were not born under (into?) free-market capitalism. There is no record of any developed nation that has been built and maintained without regulation (in the form of laws which benefit specific sectors and industrial pursuits) and government subsidies. We were born into a regulated capitalist system (which only explicitly adopted the idea of the 'free market' in the 1980s). Moreover, many of us were born as a result of the well-being of our parents, something which has been achieved through government support (i.e. socialist policies). Alongside this, many were state educated. If you or your parents were state-educated then you should think twice before dismissing left-wing ideas.

A proper 'free-market' would not be possible. It would have to do away with all legal rights (for workers, employers, shareholders etc.) and any benevolence would be at the whim of those with capital. If you want to see what a 'free-market' looks like, look at those countries where workers are treated as expendable and where union activity is actively punished. Look at countries whose economies have been destroyed by whimsical corporate investment (by corporations whose assets are protected by the law of their own nation).

There is no such thing as a free market. In any economy, someone benefits while others lose out. Capitalism may be the best system available for maximising benefit; however, it does not do this by being 'left to itself'. This has been proven time and time again.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: All Hail Free Market Capitalism!

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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bobevenson
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Re: All Hail Free Market Capitalism!

Post by bobevenson »

ala1993 wrote:There is no such thing as a free market.
There's a free market, all right, it's just not being practiced anywhere in the world at the present time. By a free market, I mean being able to buy or sell things at an agreed upon price without government interference.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: All Hail Free Market Capitalism!

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

bobevenson wrote:
ala1993 wrote:There is no such thing as a free market.
There's a free market, all right, it's just not being practiced anywhere in the world at the present time. By a free market, I mean being able to buy or sell things at an agreed upon price without government interference.
Bob you are just a glutton for punishment, it's a good thing it's above your head, or you'd be crushed, which sounds counter-intuitive, I know. Can you say, "very old dog, incapable of new tricks?"
bobevenson
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Re: All Hail Free Market Capitalism!

Post by bobevenson »

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
bobevenson wrote:
ala1993 wrote:There is no such thing as a free market.
There's a free market, all right, it's just not being practiced anywhere in the world at the present time. By a free market, I mean being able to buy or sell things at an agreed upon price without government interference.
Bob you are just a glutton for punishment, it's a good thing it's above your head, or you'd be crushed, which sounds counter-intuitive, I know. Can you say, "very old dog, incapable of new tricks?"
Hey, if you've got a problem with my post, just say so, but cut the convoluted crap, OK?
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: All Hail Free Market Capitalism!

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

ala1993 wrote:There is no such thing as a free market.
bobevenson wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
bobevenson wrote:There's a free market, all right, it's just not being practiced anywhere in the world at the present time. By a free market, I mean being able to buy or sell things at an agreed upon price without government interference.
Bob you are just a glutton for punishment, it's a good thing it's above your head, or you'd be crushed, which sounds counter-intuitive, I know. Can you say, "very old dog, incapable of new tricks?"
Hey, if you've got a problem with my post, just say so, but cut the convoluted crap, OK?
Because you didn't decipher it, listen to ala1993.
bobevenson
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Re: All Hail Free Market Capitalism!

Post by bobevenson »

That person is obviously mentally ill. There is no such thing as a free market? At least I can understand socialists being against a free market, but to say the concept cannot exist, the poor man needs a team of psychologists from Vienna!
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henry quirk
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'capitalism' is not 'free market'

Post by henry quirk »

"There is no such thing as a free market."

"There's a free market, all right, it's just not being practiced anywhere in the world at the present time."


The validity of either/both statements depends entirely on how you define 'free market'.

I see the 'free market' as nuthin' more (or less) than the natural, unstoppable, unregulated, transactions between, among, and of, individuals.

By this definition: there most certainly is a 'free' (or -- more accurately -- 'open') market, countless numbers of them, in fact, each rising up when at least two individuals (a buyer, a seller) transact (agree to a price not predominated by a third party's standard), and ceasing to be once the transaction is complete.

'Capitalism' can be a function of the open market(s) but it is not synonymous with 'open market(s)'.

Put another way: 'capitalism' is focused on the capital, while the 'open' or 'free' market is focused on (and, fundamentally, 'is') the self-interested individuals.
bobevenson
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Re: All Hail Free Market Capitalism!

Post by bobevenson »

Again, as I said, by a free market, I mean two private parties being able to buy or sell things at an agreed upon price without government interference, and that is something that does not exist anywhere in the world, including the USA.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: All Hail Free Market Capitalism!

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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FINALLY YOU ARE RIGHT!...oh, wait a minute...







...um...EXCEPT for this one teeny, tiny group of majestically TOTALLY unregulated group of exchanges of subprime mortgages...


Ohhhhh yeeeeah! Which lead to The subprime mortgage crisis.



From wikipedia:

The U.S. subprime mortgage crisis was a set of events and conditions that led to a financial crisis and subsequent recession that began in 2008. It was characterized by a rise in subprime mortgage delinquencies and foreclosures, and the resulting decline of securities backed by said mortgages. Several major financial institutions collapsed in September 2008, with significant disruption in the flow of credit to businesses and consumers and the onset of a severe global recession.


The crisis had severe, long-lasting consequences for the U.S. and European economies. The U.S. entered a deep recession, with nearly 9 million jobs lost during 2008 and 2009, roughly 6% of the workforce. U.S. housing prices fell nearly 30% on average and the U.S. stock market fell approximately 50% by early 2009. As of early 2013, the U.S. stock market had recovered to its pre-crisis peak but housing prices remained near their low point and unemployment remained elevated. Economic growth remained below pre-crisis levels. Europe also continued to struggle with its own economic crisis.




...yeah so, other than that, deregulation & ultimately unregulated exchanges are AWESOME! - ESPECIALLY if you are a banker, securities exchange broker or large corporation.








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All Hail Free Market Capitalism!






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henry quirk
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Sorry, Bob, but you're wrong...

Post by henry quirk »

...here's two examples to illustrate:

The prostitute and her (or his) customer enter into a transaction that, while forbidden by the powers that be, is unregulated by the powers that be. And, if both hooker and john exercise caution, the price paid and the service rendered is determined solely by the two of them (no government involvement).

If that example is unpalatable, try this one...

I self-employ...I'm a professional snoop...if information exists (in a database, hard archive, or inside a person's skull) there's an excellent chance I can find it...I set my fees based on the kind of information sought, and my assessment of the possible difficulty in getting at that information...my customers are private citizens, each looking for sumthin' on a person, place, or thing.

I -- as a function of the contract between us -- always receive cash (or, in a few cases, an idiosyncratic compensation); the customer -- as a function of the contract between us -- receives a detailed oral report of my findings.

I declare nuthin' to the powers that be, and (considering the nature of the information sought) my customers, I'm certain, declare nuthin' to the powers that be.

In both cases (one black market, the other, gray) certain activities that 'could' be regulated, 'aren't'.

So: in light of the above examples, how can you say a 'free market' (as you or I define it) doesn't exist?
bobevenson
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Re: All Hail Free Market Capitalism!

Post by bobevenson »

For all of you people who don't understand anything about economics, let me present a simple example of what I'm talking about. If I decide to turn turn my car into a taxicab, and I negotiate with you to take you someplace for an agreed upon fee, the stinking government should not stick its stinking nose into our business, saying that I have to have a stinking license of some kind, or that I have to have some kind of stinking insurance or any other stinking commercial obstacles it can come up with to restrict free trade. Have I made myself sufficiently clear?
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

Bob,

I see no difference between you renting your car out as unlicensed taxi, and the prostitute renting out her (or his) body out as pleasure unit.

In both cases: a person is making a buck without considering what Uncle Sam has to say about it, and neither is paying a tax, or licensing fee.

So -- again (since prostitution *exists) -- you are wrong to say 'free markets' don't exist.








*not to mention I 'do' what I do and pay no taxes or licensing fees.
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henry quirk
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As far as I can tell...

Post by henry quirk »

...the only real difference between your position, Bob, and mine: my examples are drawn from the real black and gray markets and yours are drawn from the land of 'should be'.

Perhaps the only valid 'free market', in your eyes, is the one government officially sanctions and remains economically 'neutral' towards.

The economically 'neutral' government is a nice idea, but unrealistic (as though folks in power would ever choose to NOT exercise that power)

Many folks (myself included) won't wait around for the powers that be to go 'neutral'.
bobevenson
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Re: All Hail Free Market Capitalism!

Post by bobevenson »

Yes, of course a free market can exist on specific transactions, but unless the government stays out of the legality of all private transactions, a free market does not exist. To give you a more substantial example, when you buy a bottle of Coke or Pepsi, you are not getting genuine cane sugar in your drink, but cheap corn syrup due to government restrictions on the importation of sugar to protect certain U.S. sugar interests.
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