Ukraine Crisis

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:03 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:50 pm Let's talk common sense here, Gary. Let your self-interest be your guide. What do you get for insulting God?
I'm not insulting God.
Yeah, you sure are. You're not asking about God, you're caricaturing Him in a rather naive and shallow way, if I may say, and then excoriating Him for "failing" to "live up," so to speak, to your personal demands.

To be honest, it's rather adolescent, actually. It's like the spiteful teenager who yells, "I hate you; you've ruined my life," and runs off to his room instead of trying to understand what his parents are trying to do for him.

I think you're trying to provoke a reaction, just as the teenager would be trying to do. But he doesn't realize that that is not the way to speak to parents, and not the way to be made wise as to the world. He's just being petulant, not thoughtful.

You can do better. At times, you have done.

This isn't your best moment, though.
Gary Childress
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:15 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:03 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:50 pm Let's talk common sense here, Gary. Let your self-interest be your guide. What do you get for insulting God?
I'm not insulting God.
Yeah, you sure are. You're not asking about God, you're caricaturing Him in a rather naive and shallow way, if I may say, and then excoriating Him for "failing" to "live up," so to speak, to your personal demands.

To be honest, it's rather adolescent, actually. It's like the spiteful teenager who yells, "I hate you; you've ruined my life," and runs off to his room instead of trying to understand what his parents are trying to do for him.

I think you're trying to provoke a reaction, just as the teenager would be trying to do. But he doesn't realize that that is not the way to speak to parents, and not the way to be made wise as to the world. He's just being petulant, not thoughtful.

You can do better. At times, you have done.

This isn't your best moment, though.
Have it your way, IC. You want Yahweh. Then have Yahweh. I'll have nothing to do with that bad apple. You want desperately to bring me back into the fold of misery. No thanks. I feel happier already, having shed that shibboleth. You can't control me, IC. You and the priestly class will need to find someone else to exploit.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:19 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:15 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:03 pm
I'm not insulting God.
Yeah, you sure are. You're not asking about God, you're caricaturing Him in a rather naive and shallow way, if I may say, and then excoriating Him for "failing" to "live up," so to speak, to your personal demands.

To be honest, it's rather adolescent, actually. It's like the spiteful teenager who yells, "I hate you; you've ruined my life," and runs off to his room instead of trying to understand what his parents are trying to do for him.

I think you're trying to provoke a reaction, just as the teenager would be trying to do. But he doesn't realize that that is not the way to speak to parents, and not the way to be made wise as to the world. He's just being petulant, not thoughtful.

You can do better. At times, you have done.

This isn't your best moment, though.
Have it your way, IC. You want Yahweh.
I can tell you have no idea who YHWH is. Maybe I wouldn't want your conception of Him either...I don't doubt that's true. Too bad for your self-confidence that your understanding of Him utterly fails to reflect anything said about the YHWH in the Bible.

It seems that making up your own view, and then hating it, isn't a very intelligible thing to do.
Gary Childress
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:23 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:19 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:15 pm
Yeah, you sure are. You're not asking about God, you're caricaturing Him in a rather naive and shallow way, if I may say, and then excoriating Him for "failing" to "live up," so to speak, to your personal demands.

To be honest, it's rather adolescent, actually. It's like the spiteful teenager who yells, "I hate you; you've ruined my life," and runs off to his room instead of trying to understand what his parents are trying to do for him.

I think you're trying to provoke a reaction, just as the teenager would be trying to do. But he doesn't realize that that is not the way to speak to parents, and not the way to be made wise as to the world. He's just being petulant, not thoughtful.

You can do better. At times, you have done.

This isn't your best moment, though.
Have it your way, IC. You want Yahweh.
I can tell you have no idea who YHWH is. Maybe I wouldn't want your conception of Him either...I don't doubt that's true. Too bad for your self-confidence that your understanding of Him utterly fails to reflect anything said about the YHWH in the Bible.

It seems that making up your own view, and then hating it, isn't a very intelligible thing to do.
OK. The flood didn't happen. Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son didn't happen. The Israelites being told by God to massacre all the Amorites didn't happen. What is clear to me is that the happier I become the more sour you become. I'm sorry you can't draw off my misery anymore to bolster your self-esteem. However, that's precisely what it is. You need to feel right and validated. Unfortunately, the God you worship isn't a very good one. So you don't deserve to feel that way. Come back to me when you find a better God.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:30 pm OK. The flood didn't happen.
Well, apparently, since so many cultures have "flood narratives," I think we'd be unwise to be confident about that.
Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son didn't happen.
Actually, he never had to. Did you read the story? It's about how YHWH had delivered his people from the practices so common in the surrounding nations, of actually sacrificing their children. God provided a proxy, and by that proxy, Isaac was saved.

Get it, yet?
The Israelites being told by God to massacre all the Amorites didn't happen.
Wait a minute. I thought you said that people who sacrifice their children were bad. Now you actually want to defend people for whom it was a common practice? And that wasn't all they were up to, either. But God gave them some 400 years to stop doing such things, and they would not. So what would you like a righteous God to do about that?

But all of this is entirely beside the point, Gary. I don't, for a second, believe that your problem with God has anything to do with the antediluvians, Isaac or the Amorites. I very much doubt your love of ancient peoples' is so wildly great that it stymies you at the present moment. I rather believe that's all an evasion, when you actually have things related to yourself in mind.

Besides...you just said it yourself. You don't believe ANY of those things actually happened. So they can't possibly be a problem to you.
I'm sorry you can't draw off my misery anymore to bolster your self-esteem.
:D Oh, Gary...that's just sad.

If you think anybody needs to "bolster their self esteem" by picking on you...well, I don't know how that would even work.

Sorry, but I just don't get that.
You need to feel right and validated.
How's that going to work? If I pick on the guy who says he's already miserable, lonely, angry and mentally ill to agree with me, I get "validated"? :shock:

I can't wrap my head around that one, Gary.
Gary Childress
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:43 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:30 pm OK. The flood didn't happen.
Well, apparently, since so many cultures have "flood narratives," I think we'd be unwise to be confident about that.
Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son didn't happen.
Actually, he never had to. Did you read the story? It's about how YHWH had delivered his people from the practices so common in the surrounding nations, of actually sacrificing their children. God provided a proxy, and by that proxy, Isaac was saved.

Get it, yet?
The Israelites being told by God to massacre all the Amorites didn't happen.
Wait a minute. I thought you said that people who sacrifice their children were bad. Now you actually want to defend people for whom it was a common practice? And that wasn't all they were up to, either. But God gave them some 400 years to stop doing such things, and they would not. So what would you like a righteous God to do about that?

But all of this is entirely beside the point, Gary. I don't, for a second, believe that your problem with God has anything to do with the antediluvians, Isaac or the Amorites. I very much doubt your love of ancient peoples' is so wildly great that it stymies you at the present moment. I rather believe that's all an evasion, when you actually have things related to yourself in mind.

Besides...you just said it yourself. You don't believe ANY of those things actually happened. So they can't possibly be a problem to you.
I'm sorry you can't draw off my misery anymore to bolster your self-esteem.
:D Oh, Gary...that's just sad.

If you think anybody needs to "bolster their self esteem" by picking on you...well, I don't know how that would even work.

Sorry, but I just don't get that.
You need to feel right and validated.
How's that going to work? If I pick on the guy who says he's already miserable, lonely, angry and mentally ill to agree with me, I get "validated"? :shock:

I can't wrap my head around that one, Gary.
Whatever, IC. Have a nice day. Bye.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Dontaskme »

War what War?

Crisis what Crisis ~ Supertramp. :wink:

Normalcy bias, or normality bias, is a cognitive bias which leads people to disbelieve or minimize threat warnings.

Ok, whatever. Let the beginning of the end begin.

World war 1 World war 2 World war _______________________________________________________________________________________

Hello, is there anyone here?
popeye1945
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by popeye1945 »

The United States using NATO as its vehicle of aggression, trailing a whoring Europe should remember that Russia is not alone, China, India, The Middle East and all of Southeast Asia. As well as others not entirely pleased with big brother's desire for world dominance. There are surprises down this road!!!
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iambiguous
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by iambiguous »

"Scary" is starting to pop up again in assessments of Ukraine:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/05/opin ... putin.html

Thomas L. Friedman in the New York Times:

Putin, it’s now clear, has decided to double down, mobilizing in recent months possibly as many as 500,000 fresh soldiers for a new push on the war’s first anniversary. Mass matters in war — even if that mass contains a large number of mercenaries, convicts and untrained conscripts.

Putin is basically saying to Biden: I can’t afford to lose this war and I will pay any price and bear any burden to ensure that I come away with a slice of Ukraine that can justify my losses. How about you, Joe? How about your European friends? Are you ready to pay any price and bear any burden to uphold your “liberal order”?

This is going to get scary. And because we have had nearly a generation without a Great Power war, a lot of people have forgotten what made this long era of Great Power peace possible.


And...

There are...many voices on the left, though, who are legitimately asking: Is it really worth risking World War III to drive Russia all the way out of Eastern Ukraine? Haven’t we hurt Putin so badly by now that he won’t be trying something like Ukraine again soon? Time for a dirty deal?

Of course, Thomas Friedman is smack dab in the middle of the Deep State. Or, rather, my own take on it: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... s#p2187045

Basically, I suspect that his real concern is this: that if it all does lead to World War III, he and his loved ones might well be vaporized themselves.

Democracy in Ukraine, sure. But not all costs.
Gary Childress
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:35 pm The United States using NATO as its vehicle of aggression, trailing a whoring Europe should remember that Russia is not alone, China, India, The Middle East and all of Southeast Asia. As well as others not entirely pleased with big brother's desire for world dominance. There are surprises down this road!!!
Don't become too overjoyed at our demise. It's not an everyone-win's situation if Russia recovers the power it once had by absorbing Ukraine. It'll likely be a return to fallout shelters for just about everyone as a daily reality and the ever-present specter of MAD on a universal basis. Make no mistake, Russia is just as wrong here as we have been in past conflicts. Putin will use a win in Ukraine to continue reconciling his power and continue his project of recreating the might of the now-defunct Soviet Union. Indeed, a win here would be a tremendous booster for Putin. If you want a return to the conditions during the Cold War you are insane. Do you by chance remember what it was like during the Cold War--the world's peoples constantly afraid of nuclear war? The possibility of a nuclear accident or mistaken launch? The US had mostly let its Nuclear capability fall by the wayside until Putin's buddy Trump got into office. There's some serious issues with Putin. He's ex-KGB and a pretty nasty dude overall. Not someone you should be cheerleading for if you know what's good for you. :shock:
popeye1945
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by popeye1945 »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:20 am
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:35 pm The United States using NATO as its vehicle of aggression, trailing a whoring Europe should remember that Russia is not alone, China, India, The Middle East and all of Southeast Asia. As well as others not entirely pleased with big brother's desire for world dominance. There are surprises down this road!!!
Don't become too overjoyed at our demise. It's not an everyone-win's situation if Russia recovers the power, it once had by absorbing Ukraine. It'll likely be a return to fallout shelters for just about everyone as a daily reality and the ever-present specter of MAD on a universal basis. Make no mistake, Russia is just as wrong here as we have been in past conflicts. Putin will use a win in Ukraine to continue reconciling his power and continue his project of recreating the might of the now-defunct Soviet Union. Indeed, a win here would be a tremendous booster for Putin. If you want a return to the conditions during the Cold War you are insane. Do you by chance remember what it was like during the Cold War--the world's peoples constantly afraid of nuclear war? The possibility of a nuclear accident or mistaken launch? The US had mostly let its nuclear capability fall by the wayside until Putin's buddy Trump got into office. There are some serious issues with Putin. He's ex-KGB and a pretty nasty dude overall. Not someone you should be cheerleading for if you know what's good for you. : shock:
You need to ask yourself what my fears license me to do to others. The United States some time ago passed legislation for first strike capability, which means, if they deem anyone a problem, they can justly assault/read make war upon them. The easiest thing in the world it seems with any given population is to demonize others. Perhaps you forget Vietnam and the domino effect, it was a license to commit genocide. The Russians are not monsters, you perhaps need to get more familiar with the past and present global activities of American the beautiful, not nice. Putin's a pretty nasty dude you say, good grief lad look at your own politicians. American is so powerful it cannot be held responsible for its crimes again humanity, no Nuremberg like trials for Yanks. Don't listen to what politicians say or governments but what they do, and right now America the beautiful is making war on Russia. Take the blinders off, America is out for world domination and the easiest way about that is to accuse others of what you are doing yourself. Half of the world empathizes with Russia's predicament are they all monsters too? America is the greatest imperial power the world has ever known, and no less ruthless than the Third Reich was accept more covert. Take the demon labels off the other half of the world and sanity will flood in.
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:58 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:20 am
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:35 pm The United States using NATO as its vehicle of aggression, trailing a whoring Europe should remember that Russia is not alone, China, India, The Middle East and all of Southeast Asia. As well as others not entirely pleased with big brother's desire for world dominance. There are surprises down this road!!!
Don't become too overjoyed at our demise. It's not an everyone-win's situation if Russia recovers the power, it once had by absorbing Ukraine. It'll likely be a return to fallout shelters for just about everyone as a daily reality and the ever-present specter of MAD on a universal basis. Make no mistake, Russia is just as wrong here as we have been in past conflicts. Putin will use a win in Ukraine to continue reconciling his power and continue his project of recreating the might of the now-defunct Soviet Union. Indeed, a win here would be a tremendous booster for Putin. If you want a return to the conditions during the Cold War you are insane. Do you by chance remember what it was like during the Cold War--the world's peoples constantly afraid of nuclear war? The possibility of a nuclear accident or mistaken launch? The US had mostly let its nuclear capability fall by the wayside until Putin's buddy Trump got into office. There are some serious issues with Putin. He's ex-KGB and a pretty nasty dude overall. Not someone you should be cheerleading for if you know what's good for you. : shock:
You need to ask yourself what my fears license me to do to others. The United States some time ago passed legislation for first strike capability, which means, if they deem anyone a problem, they can justly assault/read make war upon them. The easiest thing in the world it seems with any given population is to demonize others. Perhaps you forget Vietnam and the domino effect, it was a license to commit genocide. The Russians are not monsters, you perhaps need to get more familiar with the past and present global activities of American the beautiful, not nice. Putin's a pretty nasty dude you say, good grief lad look at your own politicians. American is so powerful it cannot be held responsible for its crimes again humanity, no Nuremberg like trials for Yanks. Don't listen to what politicians say or governments but what they do, and right now America the beautiful is making war on Russia. Take the blinders off, America is out for world domination and the easiest way about that is to accuse others of what you are doing yourself. Half of the world empathizes with Russia's predicament are they all monsters too? America is the greatest imperial power the world has ever known, and no less ruthless than the Third Reich was accept more covert. Take the demon labels off the other half of the world and sanity will flood in.
Those are ad hominems and red herrings. We are talking about an invasion. Do you believe it's OK for countries to invade other countries preemptively for reasons of security alone or do you not? Make up your mind. I'm 100% with reigning in American aggression. I'm 100% with war crimes trails for many American presidents. But aggression is aggression regardless of who does it. Two wrongs don't make a right and special pleading is a fallacy as well. A broken clock can be right twice a day and an evil empire can be right when it helps someone fend off an unjust invasion.
popeye1945
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by popeye1945 »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:18 am
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:58 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:20 am

Don't become too overjoyed at our demise. It's not an everyone-win's situation if Russia recovers the power, it once had by absorbing Ukraine. It'll likely be a return to fallout shelters for just about everyone as a daily reality and the ever-present specter of MAD on a universal basis. Make no mistake, Russia is just as wrong here as we have been in past conflicts. Putin will use a win in Ukraine to continue reconciling his power and continue his project of recreating the might of the now-defunct Soviet Union. Indeed, a win here would be a tremendous booster for Putin. If you want a return to the conditions during the Cold War you are insane. Do you by chance remember what it was like during the Cold War--the world's peoples constantly afraid of nuclear war? The possibility of a nuclear accident or mistaken launch? The US had mostly let its nuclear capability fall by the wayside until Putin's buddy Trump got into office. There are some serious issues with Putin. He's ex-KGB and a pretty nasty dude overall. Not someone you should be cheerleading for if you know what's good for you. : shock:
You need to ask yourself what my fears license me to do to others. The United States some time ago passed legislation for first strike capability, which means, if they deem anyone a problem, they can justly assault/read make war upon them. The easiest thing in the world it seems with any given population is to demonize others. Perhaps you forget Vietnam and the domino effect, it was a license to commit genocide. The Russians are not monsters, you perhaps need to get more familiar with the past and present global activities of American the beautiful, not nice. Putin's a pretty nasty dude you say, good grief lad look at your own politicians. American is so powerful it cannot be held responsible for its crimes again humanity, no Nuremberg like trials for Yanks. Don't listen to what politicians say or governments but what they do, and right now America the beautiful is making war on Russia. Take the blinders off, America is out for world domination and the easiest way about that is to accuse others of what you are doing yourself. Half of the world empathizes with Russia's predicament are they all monsters too? America is the greatest imperial power the world has ever known, and no less ruthless than the Third Reich was accept more covert. Take the demon labels off the other half of the world and sanity will flood in.
Those are ad hominems and red herrings. We are talking about an invasion. Do you believe it's OK for countries to invade other countries preemptively for reasons of security alone or do you not? Make up your mind. I'm 100% with reigning in American aggression. I'm 100% with war crimes trails for many American presidents. But aggression is aggression regardless of who does it. Two wrongs don't make a right and special pleading is a fallacy as well. A broken clock can be right twice a day and an evil empire can be right when it helps someone fend off an unjust invasion.
Precisely, America is invading the security space of Russia what if Russia set up military bases in Canada on its borders. You have a blind spot when it comes to America. Do you believe an individual has the right to defend themselves in the face of aggression, for Christ's sake America is aggression. Our dialogue seems an act of futility, which seems to be the general case around this thing; to bad, it may mean our demise.
Gary Childress
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:05 am
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:18 am
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:58 pm

You need to ask yourself what my fears license me to do to others. The United States some time ago passed legislation for first strike capability, which means, if they deem anyone a problem, they can justly assault/read make war upon them. The easiest thing in the world it seems with any given population is to demonize others. Perhaps you forget Vietnam and the domino effect, it was a license to commit genocide. The Russians are not monsters, you perhaps need to get more familiar with the past and present global activities of American the beautiful, not nice. Putin's a pretty nasty dude you say, good grief lad look at your own politicians. American is so powerful it cannot be held responsible for its crimes again humanity, no Nuremberg like trials for Yanks. Don't listen to what politicians say or governments but what they do, and right now America the beautiful is making war on Russia. Take the blinders off, America is out for world domination and the easiest way about that is to accuse others of what you are doing yourself. Half of the world empathizes with Russia's predicament are they all monsters too? America is the greatest imperial power the world has ever known, and no less ruthless than the Third Reich was accept more covert. Take the demon labels off the other half of the world and sanity will flood in.
Those are ad hominems and red herrings. We are talking about an invasion. Do you believe it's OK for countries to invade other countries preemptively for reasons of security alone or do you not? Make up your mind. I'm 100% with reigning in American aggression. I'm 100% with war crimes trails for many American presidents. But aggression is aggression regardless of who does it. Two wrongs don't make a right and special pleading is a fallacy as well. A broken clock can be right twice a day and an evil empire can be right when it helps someone fend off an unjust invasion.
Precisely, America is invading the security space of Russia what if Russia set up military bases in Canada on its borders. You have a blind spot when it comes to America. Do you believe an individual has the right to defend themselves in the face of aggression, for Christ's sake America is aggression. Our dialogue seems an act of futility, which seems to be the general case around this thing; to bad, it may mean our demise.
OK. So you apparently believe preemptively invading other countries for security reasons is justified under "special circumstances"? Do you think Israel was justified to invade Gaza, the US to invade Cuba? I don't.
popeye1945
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Re: Ukraine Crisis

Post by popeye1945 »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:12 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:05 am
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:18 am

Those are ad hominems and red herrings. We are talking about an invasion. Do you believe it's OK for countries to invade other countries preemptively for reasons of security alone or do you not? Make up your mind. I'm 100% with reigning in American aggression. I'm 100% with war crimes trails for many American presidents. But aggression is aggression regardless of who does it. Two wrongs don't make a right and special pleading is a fallacy as well. A broken clock can be right twice a day and an evil empire can be right when it helps someone fend off an unjust invasion.
Precisely, America is invading the security space of Russia what if Russia set up military bases in Canada on its borders. You have a blind spot when it comes to America. Do you believe an individual has the right to defend themselves in the face of aggression, for Christ's sake America is aggression. Our dialogue seems an act of futility, which seems to be the general case around this thing; to bad, it may mean our demise.
OK. So you apparently believe preemptively invading other countries for security reasons is justified under "special circumstances"? Do you think Israel was justified to invade Gaza, the US to invade Cuba? I don't.
I already told you, America passed legislation during the younger Bush administration for preemptive strikes not for what another country is doing, but for what they might do, or what they have a capacity to do. Is the fact the America has forty military bases with nuclear weapons surrounding China not aggression? It is my understanding that Israel is behaving in a fascist manner in this regard and keep in mind that the world community is against the continuation of the embargo against Cuba all but, the United States and Israel; they are bed fellows and might makes right.
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