The cracks in Capitalism are showing

How should society be organised, if at all?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Iwannaplato
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Iwannaplato »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:31 am It does not seem to me I was bein' complimented. I believe B & pro were sayin' I was derivative.
Well, I find prometheus unclear on content, let alone my trying to read his intentions. But Belinda seemed pleased with your thoughts and asked a question about Heidegger. But even if pro intended to accuse, it's silly to accuse someone of being influenced by a skilled philosopher. I mean, we are all chewing on ideas from others. Some chew well, others are just groupies who parrot. Some can, yes, mix in their own conclusions and tweak or more what they liked in others. Unless you are a feral child, you've been influenced.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 12732
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by henry quirk »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:36 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:31 am It does not seem to me I was bein' complimented. I believe B & pro were sayin' I was derivative.
Well, I find prometheus unclear on content, let alone my trying to read his intentions. But Belinda seemed pleased with your thoughts and asked a question about Heidegger. But even if pro intended to accuse, it's silly to accuse someone of being influenced by a skilled philosopher. I mean, we are all chewing on ideas from others. Some chew well, others are just groupies who parrot. Some can, yes, mix in their own conclusions and tweak or more what they liked in others. Unless you are a feral child, you've been influenced.
Well, sure, but not by Sartre or Heidegger cuz, as I say, I've never read 'em. My primary influences were the writers of the comic books and science fiction I ate as a kid.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Iwannaplato »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:24 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:36 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:31 am It does not seem to me I was bein' complimented. I believe B & pro were sayin' I was derivative.
Well, I find prometheus unclear on content, let alone my trying to read his intentions. But Belinda seemed pleased with your thoughts and asked a question about Heidegger. But even if pro intended to accuse, it's silly to accuse someone of being influenced by a skilled philosopher. I mean, we are all chewing on ideas from others. Some chew well, others are just groupies who parrot. Some can, yes, mix in their own conclusions and tweak or more what they liked in others. Unless you are a feral child, you've been influenced.
Well, sure, but not by Sartre or Heidegger cuz, as I say, I've never read 'em. My primary influences were the writers of the comic books and science fiction I ate as a kid.
Sure, sure. I wasn't claiming you lied about reading them. Promise.

Existentialism, however, seeped into science fiction, and then into readers, but that doesn't mean it took in you.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 12732
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by henry quirk »

Sure, sure. I wasn't claiming you lied about reading them. Promise.
I didn't think you were, so: we're good.

*
Existentialism, however, seeped into science fiction, and then into readers, but that doesn't mean it took in you.
Oh, no doubt it did, along with a whole whack of other stuff.
Gary Childress
Posts: 3152
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: The Domain of Confusion

Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Gary Childress »

Well, to be fair, I don't know that socialism doesn't have cracks too. Which one has worse cracks, I don't know. Life seems to generally be just one big mess. But maybe that's just me expecting too much from from life.
promethean75
Posts: 1328
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by promethean75 »

"Well, to be fair, I don't know that socialism doesn't have cracks too."

Well you gotta do it first before you can find any cracks in it.

And to answer your interrogating questions in advance, no, those weren't Socialist. Socialistic in a few aspects for a short time, but not the full monty.
promethean75
Posts: 1328
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by promethean75 »

And I don't say this as a socialist. I could never be a socialist. I ain't built that way.

I say it for you all, because I truly feel that the problems most of you face in your life are simple enough to be remedied by a socialist society, you just don't know it. I think you think your problems are metaphysical, religious, philosophical, whatever, when in fact their just socio-economic. And I think most of you (excluding the capitalists amoung you) would benefit well, feel better, and be generally happier people in a socialist society.

I'm just tryna help bro.
Gary Childress
Posts: 3152
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: The Domain of Confusion

Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Gary Childress »

promethean75 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:39 pm And I don't say this as a socialist. I could never be a socialist. I ain't built that way.

I say it for you all, because I truly feel that the problems most of you face in your life are simple enough to be remedied by a socialist society, you just don't know it. I think you think your problems are metaphysical, religious, philosophical, whatever, when in fact their just socio-economic. And I think most of you (excluding the capitalists amoung you) would benefit well, feel better, and be generally happier people in a socialist society.

I'm just tryna help bro.
when you say, "socialist" do you mean a society where economic activity is legislated by public institutions/aka government? If so, then I don't see where you're going to end up with much different than what we currently have under the legislation of private individuals. In the end, humans will always be in charge and that means there will be failings and shortcomings no matter how good the intentions.
promethean75
Posts: 1328
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by promethean75 »

i wouldn't use the word 'government' prematurely and instead just say 'the workers'. People get scared by the word 'government'.

yeah basically. two things would determine and control market activity in a socialism. Workers and demand. there would be no more privately owned companies that employ wage workers. all the modes and means of any kind of commodity and service production would be under the democratic control and administration of the workers. they would decide among themselves what wages are to be paid (based on meritocratic principles; worker's natural talents, strengths, productive capacities, etc.), what is to be produced, and how much it is to be sold for. Market demand takes care of the rest.

so here's the thing. this kind of society would naturally, necessarily and eventually extend the decision making power and therefore the governing power of the working class into the realm of politics. or rather, politics and economy would be indistinguishable... or inseparable. 
Gary Childress
Posts: 3152
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: The Domain of Confusion

Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by Gary Childress »

promethean75 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:37 pm i wouldn't use the word 'government' prematurely and instead just say 'the workers'. People get scared by the word 'government'.

yeah basically. two things would determine and control market activity in a socialism. Workers and demand. there would be no more privately owned companies that employ wage workers. all the modes and means of any kind of commodity and service production would be under the democratic control and administration of the workers. they would decide among themselves what wages are to be paid (based on meritocratic principles; worker's natural talents, strengths, productive capacities, etc.), what is to be produced, and how much it is to be sold for. Market demand takes care of the rest.

so here's the thing. this kind of society would naturally, necessarily and eventually extend the decision making power and therefore the governing power of the working class into the realm of politics. or rather, politics and economy would be indistinguishable... or inseparable. 
Most jobs I have worked in this so-called "capitalist" economy we are in are run by managers who rely on their staff to inform them and do their jobs. The managers look at the spreadsheets and oversee the production of whatever is being produced (be it paperwork if nothing else) and tell workers what they need to improve on or what they're doing right. Managers regulate production based on supply and demand. Some managers are good ones (personable) and listen to and treat their workers with dignity. Some managers are assholes and sometimes the assholes get weeded out for their behavior and sometimes they don't. Some managers get their positions because they do things well and know what they're doing. Some get their positions for no other reason than because they have pretty faces or something.

How is any of that going to change in this "democratic socialist" model of yours? Are humans going to magically stop being humans and start being perfect? All the dysfunctions like groupthink or incompetence are going to magically disappear and never be experienced again? And every time a change in demand occurs and a corresponding change in production is warranted, all the workers are going to stop their work, get together and vote on whether or not they want to change their production? What exactly is going to be the purpose of this vote? How long will it take to come to a consensus on what to do? And how will that consensus differ from what a manager's decision would be? How long before this workers' commune starts to appoint overseers to oversee various parts of the operations so they don't have to cast a pointless vote every time that either says, "yes we are going to produce more when we need to produce more" or "no we're not going to produce more when we need to produce more"? How different will those overseers be from the managers we have today? I don't think these utopias we're being told about are any more real than the one's fundie Laissez-faire capitalists tell us about. Most successful economies I know of are mixed economies where there is tension between government institutions and private institutions and that tension keeps those societies reasonably dynamic.
promethean75
Posts: 1328
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: The cracks in Capitalism are showing

Post by promethean75 »

"How is any of that going to change in this "democratic socialist" model of yours?"

the managers thing? oh well see there would be more direct recall/mandate power that would be extended over a larger number of voters. the basic argument breaks down to differences between horizontal and vertical government styles. I posted a video months ago in which this dude lays the whole shit out. The early soviet style government is examined in the video and compared to its liberal western style counterpart, etc. lemme find it hold on.

https://youtu.be/byqOHE-37og

in any case marx, engels, lenin and trotsky were no 'utopianists' by any stretch of the werd. that's a buzz concept that is falsely attributed to Marxists by right-wingers.

but it's not enough to say 'marxism won't eliminate all human suffering, therefore we should keep capitalism'. that conclusion doesn't follow. it could be supporting evidence in a larger argument, but in itself its hardly a strong argument.

rather it's that media-created false image of utopia in your head that distorts your understanding and expectation of what Marxism would/should be capable of, see.

the point is to distribute wealth more logically and according to what, and how, it is earned by and through labor. simple stuff really. you want better returns for everyone in theory but you'd never admit it and you certainly couldn't do it as a capitalist because capitalism depends on exploitation (i mean that word in its strict functional sense and am not moralizing here). free market theorists and philosophers were certainly not wrong in their estimation of human nature and back then the idea was revolutionary. kay but things have changed, G. not everybody became rich like they thought. i mean bro we're in the 2000s and some people still can't afford no shoes. there's something intuitively wrong about that in the sense that that fact has to be ridiculous regardless of your ontology. It's embarrassing dude and I will have no part in it.
Post Reply