Do we really have religious rights in the United States

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Mattchew83
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Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by Mattchew83 »

Please join in on this discussion on Thelaw.com (https://www.thelaw.com/threads/definiti ... ost-329670.) We are discussing the binding legal definition of "Religion" and whether or not there are actually religious rights in this country. My next post will be interesting, and i will post it around 8 pm.

I could really use the help of some intellectuals. We might be able to prove some things here.

I will also be making another thread on TheLaw.com entitled "Free all Prisoners? Expunge all of their records?". I will let you know when I do this.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by Immanuel Can »

Mattchew83 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:37 pm We are discussing the binding legal definition of "Religion"
That's a factual question: does US law have a formal definition for "religion," and is it "binding"? You can find that out definitively by just looking at the law itself.

Likewise, if you want to know if there is such a thing as "religious rights" in the US, you'd just have to read the Constitution and the subsequent judgments, and you'll know what the law says.

But to quote Mr. Bumble in Oliver Twist, "The law is a ass." It "says" a good many things, and most of them sensible; but not all.

A philosopher would ask something like, "What is our evidence that the definition found in the US legal machinery is accurate and reflects some sort of reality? That's quite a different issue. Or perhaps he/she would ask, "What's the evidence that anybody has 'rights' at all, beyond the law's say-so?"
promethean75
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Re: Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by promethean75 »

The question should probably be rephrased since a statement such as 'people have religious rights' puts a rather odd use and meaning to the term 'right'. Property rights, a right to bear arms, a right to legal defense, a right to vote, etc., are all discernable practices of a 'right'. That's to say, I can be sure that I am observing such 'rights' if and when they are being practiced. But how sure could I be if I thought I was observing the practice of a 'religious right', and, what kinds of behaviors would I be able to identify as 'religious'?

The point here is that due to the utterly arbitrary nature of what constitutes the essence of religious behavior, practice, and principle, it would be nearly impossible to point at such an instance of religious practice and say 'wait, that can't be religious in nature', and be sure I was correct about my judgement. On the other hand, I can be quite certain when I notice the practice and/or violation of such rights as those mentioned above.

That being said, a more accurate definition of 'religious right' might be something like: 'the right to behave in any way that does not violate the other real and substantial rights of other people'. You'll note that because there can be no positive definition of what religious behavior actually is or isn't (because religion is essentially non-sensical at worst, ambiguous at best), there can be no sensible prohibition of 'religious rights' in the first place. In shorter words; what the fuck is it?

(rhetorical question. please everybody, don't line up to answer it. I already know the answer and could right you three volumes on it)

And when nothing substantial can be said about 'religious rights' therefore, one can just as easily quote some random French philosopher and include his words in the official definition:

https://legal-dictionary.thefreediction ... aw,bouvier

In the end, it's not possible to describe what kinds of things people do as 'religious' in nature, because anything can be religious, because 'religion' doesn't mean anything.

In fact, I could leave the church of the flying spaghetti monster and start my own church of the hopping burrito monster, and I'd be well within my rights. I could dress my congregation in yellow garb and ask that they draw jalapenos on the wall while playing flutes (not at the same time, obviously, because you need both hands to play a flute), and call all this behavior 'religious', 'spiritual', and in pursuit of 'deeper more profound meaning', etc.

In the west, the courts aren't too concerned with religious rights unless such things come into conflict with other more concrete rights. In fact, religion - which incidentally promotes a passitivity of character in its practictioners - actually assists in maintaining the status-quo of capitalism by helping to discourage and deter any thought of violent rebellion against it. It works in the periphery, as it were, to satiate those being most abused by the capitalist system (the working classes).

In this sense, it would be in the court's best interest to allow such arbitrary rights as 'the right to practice the religion of [insert favorite brand of illogical superstitious nonsense]' since the branches of government work in tandem with capitalism and draw their power from exploiting the working classes. It's a pretty good deal in the end; I let you hop around happily chanting whatever you want, you're less likely to realize just how ridiculously absurd your situation actually is, and you keep on working your nine to five. Bada bing, bada boom. Everybody's happy (some of us all the way to the bank).
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henry quirk
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Re: Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by henry quirk »

I could really use the help of some intellectuals.

As I'm not an intellectual or a philosopher: I can only give you my two cents...

A man's relationship with his God is just that, his relationship.

He has the right to worship as he likes, and order his life (in accordance with that relationship) as he likes, and others have no obligation to follow suit, or even to listen to him. In the same way: he has no obligation to abandon his religion becuz those around him don't share it.

Mind your damned business: the knife with two edges.

So: yeah, you, me, him, her, we all got religious rights.
promethean75
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Re: Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by promethean75 »

"As I'm not an intellectual or a philosopher"

A wise decision, Henry. Trust me, you won't regret it.

"Mind your damned business"

Sounds great in theory, but it don't work like that in practice. Every time I turn around I got some religious nutt telling me I can't do this and I can't do that. Like I can't even kill somebody without having a thousand curses visited upon me. And that's if I'm lucky and don't get the death penalty myself. And get this; they're the ones hollerin' 'thou shalt not killeth', not me. So on top of being liars who say they won't bother me, they're also hipocrits. Crazy shit, man. Don't let em fool ya. Those asshole's will be all up in your business in a new york minute if you let em.
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henry quirk
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Re: Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by henry quirk »

Trust me

no

Every time I turn around I got some religious nutt telling me I can't do this and I can't do that.

true

also true: there's an irreligious nutjob 'round every corner lookin' to force a religious business owner to piss on his own morality

bake my tranny comin' out cake, you god botherer, or I'll sue your ass, and, no, I don't care about your rights or that the bakery across the street is more than willin' to accommodate me! I want you to do it and I'll force you to!
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by Terrapin Station »

Mattchew83 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:37 pm My next post will be interesting,
Promises, promises.
and i will post it around 8 pm.
And promises broken.


At any rate, you have the right to worship as you choose, practice the religion you choose, etc.

I'm not sure why anyone would think that you do not. What would suggest to anyone that you don't?
promethean75
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Re: Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by promethean75 »

"bake my tranny comin' out cake, you god botherer, or I'll sue your ass, and, no, I don't care about your rights or that the bakery across the street is more than willin' to accommodate me! I want you to do it and I'll force you to!"

https://www.aclu.org/blog/lgbtq-rights/ ... ay-because

See Henry this is the kind of stuff that is so entertaining to watch, because it involves such a cluster-fuck of nonsense that only a nihilist can fully appreciate it. You've got a private business (that shouldn't be) denying service to some homos for religious reasons (that don't exist), which then must be addressed by a court that must uphold and defend a constitution based on ideas and concepts that are also nonsense.

This is so comical that I'd rather just let it play out then try to resolve it. There comes a point when the momentum of historical errors becomes so unstoppable that you can do nothing about it short of destroying the whole mess and starting over. The only thing to do here is to place bets with other marxists about what will happen next.
Gary Childress
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Re: Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by Gary Childress »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:09 pm
Mattchew83 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:37 pm My next post will be interesting,
Promises, promises.
and i will post it around 8 pm.
And promises broken.


At any rate, you have the right to worship as you choose, practice the religion you choose, etc.

I'm not sure why anyone would think that you do not. What would suggest to anyone that you don't?
QED. Well said, Terrapin Station. I haven't seen anyone jailing people for practicing Christianity yet. Unless maybe Mattchew83 is talking about Islam and Sharia law. "Gee we can't cut off a homeless person's hand for stealing a loaf of bread. It's savagery I tell you!"
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henry quirk
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Re: Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by henry quirk »

pro,

You've got a private business (that shouldn't be) denying service

why shouldn't the owner/operator deny service?

'splain it to me
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:39 am I haven't seen anyone jailing people for practicing Christianity yet.
Does Soviet Russia count? How about Communist China? What about the Middle East? Do you count any of those people?

If those don't do it for you, go read about Canada's bill C4, and you'll see it can even happen in a Western "liberal democracy." Something similar may well be coming soon to a State near you...
promethean75
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Re: Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by promethean75 »

Henry I meant the private business shouldn't be, not that the right to deny service shouldn't be. I mean that shouldn't be either but that's not what I meant there.

Gary, it's true, you don't go to jail if you aren't a Christian. But don't forget that for a few hundred years, you got executed if you weren't a Christian or refused to convert.
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henry quirk
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Re: Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by henry quirk »

pro,

well, okay then

-----

back to it...

A man's relationship with his God is just that, his relationship.

He has the right to worship as he likes, and order his life (in accordance with that relationship) as he likes, and others have no obligation to follow suit, or even to listen to him. In the same way: he has no obligation to abandon his religion becuz those around him don't share it.

Mind your damned business: the knife with two edges.

So: yeah, you, me, him, her, we all got religious rights.

related note...

no one ought is obligated to transact with another

one can decline to offer service or product to another, for any damn reason, or no reason at all

one can decline to purchase the product or service of another, for any damn reason, or for no reason at all

bigots don't have to sell to fags; fags don't have to buy from bigots

'nuff said

-----

just can't let this stand...

private business shouldn't be

I have, am in a very real way, a private business

come end it: bring yer cronies

🖕
Gary Childress
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Re: Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:51 am
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:39 am I haven't seen anyone jailing people for practicing Christianity yet.
Does Soviet Russia count? How about Communist China? What about the Middle East? Do you count any of those people?

If those don't do it for you, go read about Canada's bill C4, and you'll see it can even happen in a Western "liberal democracy." Something similar may well be coming soon to a State near you...
The last time I looked, those places aren't in the United States. And looking at the wording of the C4 bill it doesn't outlaw Christianity. It outlaws "conversion therapy". How is that outlawing Christianity?
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RCSaunders
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Re: Do we really have religious rights in the United States

Post by RCSaunders »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:21 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:51 am
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:39 am I haven't seen anyone jailing people for practicing Christianity yet.
Does Soviet Russia count? How about Communist China? What about the Middle East? Do you count any of those people?

If those don't do it for you, go read about Canada's bill C4, and you'll see it can even happen in a Western "liberal democracy." Something similar may well be coming soon to a State near you...
The last time I looked, those places aren't in the United States. And looking at the wording of the C4 bill it doesn't outlaw Christianity. It outlaws "conversion therapy". How is that outlawing Christianity?
For those who believe in it, conversion therapy is a religious practice. What kind of freedom of religion is there if the state dictates the religious cannot do what they believe they ought to do?

Prayer is a religious practice which many religious believe in, but in many states children are taken from their parents (by threat of force) for state training (obscenely called education) and are not allowed to pray while incarcerated in their GCDP (government child day prison). Children also have their Bibles confiscated in many schools, and other schools are actually teaching the children religions their parents don't want them taught. Most people do not regard those state intrusions in religion as religious freedom.
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