The Blame Game

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simplicity
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The Blame Game

Post by simplicity »

The problem with blaming capitalism for all of the world's problems is that it diverts attention from the way things really are, that is, putting efforts towards solving complex multi-dimensional problems along with acknowledging multiple issues that are just part of our nature and will never be eradicated [inequality being the poster child for the later condition].

If you have studied economics to some degree, you might understand that capitalism, like most complex systems, comes with a plethora of issues, contradictions, and successes, as well. This is an economic system that has generated incredible social wealth and transformed entire societies in a manner of decades. China [although a economic basket-case because of their excesses] is a perfect example. Who could have pictured contemporary Shanghai in 1980?

All of the problems that exist today have existed throughout history [albeit in different forms/degrees]. As a matter of fact, I am not sure there are any issues that can be placed at capitalism's doorstep. After all, capitalism is an economic system made up of people. What makes this system so much more advanced is that it incorporates democratic principles [the market determining success/failure] and presents opportunity for nearly anybody to participate at all levels.

Like any complex system, capitalism has it's contradictions, but the actual design of the system is a far cry ahead of what preceded [systems based on family, race, caste, gender, etc.]. Capitalism cares not for the color of a person's skin, their religion, nor any other personal characteristics, only their ability to uphold their financial obligations under law.

Of course, there are individuals, groups, and societies that played the system for their own gain, but this is what human beings have done from the beginning and since we are in a particularly ugly phase at the moment, this tendency for massive corruption does not appear as if it going to be selected out of human behavior any time soon. It's just the way we seem to behave in groups.

I would be interested in hearing from those [and there seem to be a fair amount of anti-capitalism sentiment here] who believe that if you could somehow change to a different economic system, human behavior would change [and why that would be the case]. In other words, is it systems that make people do what they do or is it human nature that would turn every system into 'new and improved' shit, different day sort of thing?

And please...if you don't have anything constructive to add, refrain. Thanks.
simplicity
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Re: The Blame Game

Post by simplicity »

I wanted to thank the usual suspects for refraining from hurling any personal attacks, etc., my way. I am a bit disappointed that nobody took up the challenge in that this narrative seems to hold so much sway with the current anti-establishment crowd [particularly in academia where left-leaning professor-types seem completely disconnected with the workings of the real world].

Although I am no great fan of any system, one must take a step back and appreciate the economic progress that has been achieved over the past century and a half and why this has happened. As well, and although nobody deserves to accumulate vast fortunes, do not underestimate the contributions made by individuals that have sacrificed a great deal of their lives to discover/develop/invent things that have vastly improved the quality of our lives.

Also keep in mind that this current "winner take all" style of capitalism that came into being through the changing of many, many laws in the 80's/90's can and should be reset to the previous era where CEO's and other high earners did a lot better than everybody else [as they should], but earning incredible multiples of the average worker's compensation [which is counterproductive in every way] was unheard of.

In any case, I would still welcome a debate on the above. Thanks.
trokanmariel
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Re: The Blame Game

Post by trokanmariel »

simplicity wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:17 pm The problem with blaming capitalism for all of the world's problems is that it diverts attention from the way things really are, that is, putting efforts towards solving complex multi-dimensional problems along with acknowledging multiple issues that are just part of our nature and will never be eradicated [inequality being the poster child for the later condition].

If you have studied economics to some degree, you might understand that capitalism, like most complex systems, comes with a plethora of issues, contradictions, and successes, as well. This is an economic system that has generated incredible social wealth and transformed entire societies in a manner of decades. China [although a economic basket-case because of their excesses] is a perfect example. Who could have pictured contemporary Shanghai in 1980?

All of the problems that exist today have existed throughout history [albeit in different forms/degrees]. As a matter of fact, I am not sure there are any issues that can be placed at capitalism's doorstep. After all, capitalism is an economic system made up of people. What makes this system so much more advanced is that it incorporates democratic principles [the market determining success/failure] and presents opportunity for nearly anybody to participate at all levels.

Like any complex system, capitalism has it's contradictions, but the actual design of the system is a far cry ahead of what preceded [systems based on family, race, caste, gender, etc.]. Capitalism cares not for the color of a person's skin, their religion, nor any other personal characteristics, only their ability to uphold their financial obligations under law.

Of course, there are individuals, groups, and societies that played the system for their own gain, but this is what human beings have done from the beginning and since we are in a particularly ugly phase at the moment, this tendency for massive corruption does not appear as if it going to be selected out of human behavior any time soon. It's just the way we seem to behave in groups.

I would be interested in hearing from those [and there seem to be a fair amount of anti-capitalism sentiment here] who believe that if you could somehow change to a different economic system, human behavior would change [and why that would be the case]. In other words, is it systems that make people do what they do or is it human nature that would turn every system into 'new and improved' shit, different day sort of thing?

And please...if you don't have anything constructive to add, refrain. Thanks.

Thank you, for the opportunity to discuss the realities of the reality. The first point of interest, is "the market determining success/failure" dimension. The reason, for this being a point of interest, is that it is pre-empted by daylight's inherent condition.

Daylight is a system of before is after. By being that type of system, it surely pre-empts or precludes the basis of capitalism, which is to be an honest system of success and failure: if daylight supercedes capitalism, and daylight means that before is after, all momentum within capitalism's system is pointless. Thus, capitalism is not just a killer of people, but, it is an unjust killer of people.
promethean75
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Re: The Blame Game

Post by promethean75 »

Capitalism can be pretty bad at nighttime too, ya know.
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attofishpi
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Re: The Blame Game

Post by attofishpi »

simplicity wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:39 pm I wanted to thank the usual suspects for refraining from hurling any personal attacks, etc., my way.

In any case, I would still welcome a debate on the above. Thanks.
I would love to attack you personally, but alas, I don't know you personally. If you could help me out by listing everything that is a flaw in your personality, that would be a good start.
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attofishpi
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Re: The Blame Game

Post by attofishpi »

promethean75 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:52 pm Capitalism can be pretty bad at nighttime too, ya know.
I love that wackjob, I think all this vampires' posts are related to daylight for some reason.
trokanmariel
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Re: The Blame Game

Post by trokanmariel »

promethean75 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:52 pm Capitalism can be pretty bad at nighttime too, ya know.


Daylight is ultimately a proxy term, for another dimension. The ulterior dimension could be known as the reset reality, as daylight (and indeed, nighttime) is about reset.

Observation is a left to right sequence, ergo, a one type contrast, meaning that the universal type contrast of daylight is wrong, because daylight needs observation.
simplicity
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Re: The Blame Game

Post by simplicity »

attofishpi wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:01 pm
simplicity wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:39 pm I wanted to thank the usual suspects for refraining from hurling any personal attacks, etc., my way.

In any case, I would still welcome a debate on the above. Thanks.
I would love to attack you personally, but alas, I don't know you personally. If you could help me out by listing everything that is a flaw in your personality, that would be a good start.
Thank you for making my point more clearly.
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attofishpi
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Re: The Blame Game

Post by attofishpi »

simplicity wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:22 am
attofishpi wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:01 pm
simplicity wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:39 pm I wanted to thank the usual suspects for refraining from hurling any personal attacks, etc., my way.

In any case, I would still welcome a debate on the above. Thanks.
I would love to attack you personally, but alas, I don't know you personally. If you could help me out by listing everything that is a flaw in your personality, that would be a good start.
Thank you for making my point more clearly.
SO.

Clearly you failed to make the point clear enough at the outset, you total idiot.
simplicity
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Re: The Blame Game

Post by simplicity »

attofishpi wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:09 pm
simplicity wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:22 am
attofishpi wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:01 pm

I would love to attack you personally, but alas, I don't know you personally. If you could help me out by listing everything that is a flaw in your personality, that would be a good start.
Thank you for making my point more clearly.
SO.

Clearly you failed to make the point clear enough at the outset, you total idiot.
"You total idiot."

Sounds like something a ten year old would say.

Keep up the good work.
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attofishpi
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Re: The Blame Game

Post by attofishpi »

simplicity wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:04 pm
attofishpi wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:09 pm
simplicity wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:22 am
Thank you for making my point more clearly.
SO.

Clearly you failed to make the point clear enough at the outset, you total idiot.
"You total idiot."

Sounds like something a ten year old would say.

Keep up the good work.
Well..you..you're just a big poopy head. :D
Iwannaplato
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Re: The Blame Game

Post by Iwannaplato »

Capitalism can be a lot of things. There are many facets of current Western capitalism, thinking mainly of the States but other countries as well, that need not be a part of capitalism. Personally I would change some of these things. You still have capitalism, but you have radically changed it.

For example....
Do you include in your model of capitalism:
1) Anti-trust regulations - should the formation of monopolies be regulated and related how much government resources should go into copywrite and patent enforcement or is that a restriction of freedom and how does this get resolved internationally?
2) fiat fractional reserve banking - and if so, how do you see government both enforcing and regulating this? IOW this is a government granted extra power given to some people. You need government to give them the power to make money out of nothing and be able to lend it and demand it back - court systems and laws to enforce this and also the mechanism to create money out of nothing to give it to people.
3) Shareholder centered capitalism - iow, there was a large shift over recent decades to making management compensation based on short term shareholder gains. This is in tremendous contrast to corporate priorities in the 40s - 70s. Do you think this is a good change, a bad one, one that should be regulated and how.
4) Stock markets
5) Derivatives and other making money without producing things or even supporting the production of things. The finacialization of capitalism. IOW over recent decades the amount of money made via production has reduced and the amount of money made through creative investment has increased. Even large companies that used to make the vast bulk of their money via production/services now have a much higher percentage of income via creative investment.
6) Are you for Glass–Steagall type legislation and separation in finance or not? Should there be any limits on this sector? If so, which ones?
7) Corporations were the first globalists. Should the government curtail this in any way? Should corporations be allowed to interfere with democracy in other nations and through what means? Hands off completely, partly, some regulation, none?
8) What limits, if any, would you put on money controlling politicians? Issues surrounding lobbying, revolving door in oversight, campaign finance, bribes, and, in its own category......
9) generation of foreign policy?
10) What government oversight over various industries, if any? Should the government have the power to regulate certain industries - food industries, industries using potentially dangerous chemicals, etc.? Is it assumed that the market will eliminate, at least in the long run, companies that do not engage in safe or responsible practices? How do we prevent control of industry control of its own oversight, if one believes there should be some oversight?
11) Originally corporate charters, since they grant people priviledges other people do not have and these priviledges are government enforced, were withdrawn from companies that broke the law, for example, or misued their charters. That practice ended. The nation's founders were well aware that corporate entities were a threat to democracy and other facets of what they considered national health and had in place ways to restrain and even revoke the charters of problematic companies. This is not longer a practice. Should it be? Should there be a discussion about why the conservative practice of mainting this and other traditions was ended?
12) what regulation of Surveillance capitalism (as opposed to government surveillance) should there be, if any? U
13) Is media a special case? By this I mean, should centralized control be avoided? How should government regulate media, if at all? How does government regulate things like the commons involved in radio frequencies? Or is this to simply be market driven?
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RCSaunders
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Re: The Blame Game

Post by RCSaunders »

simplicity wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:17 pm If you have studied economics to some degree, you might understand that capitalism, like most complex systems, ...
How can you write that with a straight face. If you've studied economics you know capitalism is not a political system (or any other kind of system) but a view of economic relationships, namely between produced value and reservinf wealth for future production, (i.e. not eating the seed grain).

There may be politcal ideologies that intend to promote capitalist views, but there is no capitalist political system. The most common political systems in most of the world today are some variations of democracy. Capitalism is incompatible with democracy, which is why there has never been a country where capitalism was freely practiced, not even in the United States.
simplicity
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Re: The Blame Game

Post by simplicity »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:11 am
simplicity wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:17 pm If you have studied economics to some degree, you might understand that capitalism, like most complex systems, ...
How can you write that with a straight face. If you've studied economics you know capitalism is not a political system (or any other kind of system) but a view of economic relationships, namely between produced value and reservinf wealth for future production, (i.e. not eating the seed grain).

There may be politcal ideologies that intend to promote capitalist views, but there is no capitalist political system. The most common political systems in most of the world today are some variations of democracy. Capitalism is incompatible with democracy, which is why there has never been a country where capitalism was freely practiced, not even in the United States.
Whereas [technically] you are correct, capitalism cannot operate if it were not for a expansive set of legal doctrines [property rights, contract law, etc.]. Therefore, like all systems, it is intimately tied into the political system of which representative democracy seems to be the best fit.

And remember, in the short-term [at least], the political usurps the economic.
simplicity
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Re: The Blame Game

Post by simplicity »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:05 am Capitalism can be a lot of things. There are many facets of current Western capitalism, thinking mainly of the States but other countries as well, that need not be a part of capitalism. Personally I would change some of these things. You still have capitalism, but you have radically changed it.

For example....
Do you include in your model of capitalism:
1) Anti-trust regulations - should the formation of monopolies be regulated and related how much government resources should go into copywrite and patent enforcement or is that a restriction of freedom and how does this get resolved internationally?
2) fiat fractional reserve banking - and if so, how do you see government both enforcing and regulating this? IOW this is a government granted extra power given to some people. You need government to give them the power to make money out of nothing and be able to lend it and demand it back - court systems and laws to enforce this and also the mechanism to create money out of nothing to give it to people.
3) Shareholder centered capitalism - iow, there was a large shift over recent decades to making management compensation based on short term shareholder gains. This is in tremendous contrast to corporate priorities in the 40s - 70s. Do you think this is a good change, a bad one, one that should be regulated and how.
4) Stock markets
5) Derivatives and other making money without producing things or even supporting the production of things. The finacialization of capitalism. IOW over recent decades the amount of money made via production has reduced and the amount of money made through creative investment has increased. Even large companies that used to make the vast bulk of their money via production/services now have a much higher percentage of income via creative investment.
6) Are you for Glass–Steagall type legislation and separation in finance or not? Should there be any limits on this sector? If so, which ones?
7) Corporations were the first globalists. Should the government curtail this in any way? Should corporations be allowed to interfere with democracy in other nations and through what means? Hands off completely, partly, some regulation, none?
8) What limits, if any, would you put on money controlling politicians? Issues surrounding lobbying, revolving door in oversight, campaign finance, bribes, and, in its own category......
9) generation of foreign policy?
10) What government oversight over various industries, if any? Should the government have the power to regulate certain industries - food industries, industries using potentially dangerous chemicals, etc.? Is it assumed that the market will eliminate, at least in the long run, companies that do not engage in safe or responsible practices? How do we prevent control of industry control of its own oversight, if one believes there should be some oversight?
11) Originally corporate charters, since they grant people priviledges other people do not have and these priviledges are government enforced, were withdrawn from companies that broke the law, for example, or misued their charters. That practice ended. The nation's founders were well aware that corporate entities were a threat to democracy and other facets of what they considered national health and had in place ways to restrain and even revoke the charters of problematic companies. This is not longer a practice. Should it be? Should there be a discussion about why the conservative practice of mainting this and other traditions was ended?
12) what regulation of Surveillance capitalism (as opposed to government surveillance) should there be, if any? U
13) Is media a special case? By this I mean, should centralized control be avoided? How should government regulate media, if at all? How does government regulate things like the commons involved in radio frequencies? Or is this to simply be market driven?
If it were up to me, I would revoke all corporate charters, decrease the size of government by 90%, and do what is possible to attenuate political corruption which is ALWAYS the biggest problem in any system.

You do need a state to enforce property law and keep the lunatics under control, but this must be kept to a minimum. Politicians would be one or two terms max and political donations kept to some minimum, as well. And then have a check/balance system that works.

You do the best you can, work as hard as you can, help others where possible, go home and have a beer or two and watch the game. What else can one do in this world?
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