The Disinformation Age

How should society be organised, if at all?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

The Disinformation Age

Post by Gary Childress »

There seems to be a lot of misinformation going around on the Internet these days. From the Qanon weirdness to a tweet from a doctor that was reproduced making it appear that the CDC was producing misinformation about the Covid pandemic. How is this happening? Why is misinformation becoming such an issue now? Could it be from foreign countries trying to destabilize the developed world or has social media truly become a curse on the dissemination of information? Or both?

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-528961447371

https://theweek.com/coronavirus/1003095 ... ation-meme
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: The Disinformation Age

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:33 pm ...the CDC was producing misinformation...
We know it was.

When you have a series of pronouncements that actually contradict one another, you can't know what the truth is -- except that whoever is speaking, they are lying or confused, because they can't keep their story straight.

The CDC didn't get it right the first time...or the second...or the third. Do they have it right now? Who knows? But we know beyond any shadow of doubt that they were "producing misinformation," and did so several times.
Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: The Disinformation Age

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:44 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:33 pm ...the CDC was producing misinformation...
We know it was.

When you have a series of pronouncements that actually contradict one another, you can't know what the truth is -- except that whoever is speaking, they are lying or confused, because they can't keep their story straight.

The CDC didn't get it right the first time...or the second...or the third. Do they have it right now? Who knows? But we know beyond any shadow of doubt that they were "producing misinformation," and did so several times.
Are you referring to when the CDC said masks would not help any? Yes. We know that was a lie but they were saying it to discourage people from buying them up so that they would be available for hospital staff who needed them more. Of course, people started hoarding them anyway. One of the unfortunate side effects of a free market. So rather than impose draconian measures, they told people a lie to get them to behave themselves. Yes. It probably would have been best to tell the truth and tell people that they ought to save them for those who need them most. But I don't think it was a diabolical plot by the CDC to control people for nefarious reasons. I think they were faced with a crisis they weren't prepared for and did what they thought was best.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: The Disinformation Age

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:42 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:44 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:33 pm ...the CDC was producing misinformation...
We know it was.

When you have a series of pronouncements that actually contradict one another, you can't know what the truth is -- except that whoever is speaking, they are lying or confused, because they can't keep their story straight.

The CDC didn't get it right the first time...or the second...or the third. Do they have it right now? Who knows? But we know beyond any shadow of doubt that they were "producing misinformation," and did so several times.
Are you referring to when the CDC said masks would not help any? Yes. We know that was a lie but they were saying it to discourage people from buying them up so that they would be available for hospital staff who needed them more.
Let's start with that. Let's pretend that's all there is (though, of course, there's certainly not: they've repeatedly flip-flopped on numerous issues.)

They were lying. It doesn't change anything if we think they "meant well." They didn't tell people the truth; they told them a flat lie. And when an agency does that, they needn't whine later if people ask, "How do we know you're not doing it again?"
It probably would have been best to tell the truth
It would have been right and moral. But they didn't do the right thing.

Don't excuse liars, Gary. They lied. They now admit they lied. If they're having credibility problems, it's their own fault.
Skepdick
Posts: 14347
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: The Disinformation Age

Post by Skepdick »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:44 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:33 pm ...the CDC was producing misinformation...
We know it was.
Therein lies Brandolini's law!

The easiest/cheapest way to disinform is to stip words from their context and then re-contextualise them with your personal agenda.
Brandolini's law, also known as the bullshit asymmetry principle, is an internet adage that emphasizes the difficulty of debunking false, facetious, or otherwise misleading information: "The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than to produce it."
It suffices to say that Immanuel Can (through continuous deception and disinfirmation tactics) actually serves the Devil. I am a better Christian than he is.

He is actively fighting to protect he status quo and the narrative. Irrespective the cost of human lives.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:44 pm When you have a series of pronouncements that actually contradict one another, you can't know what the truth is -- except that whoever is speaking, they are lying or confused, because they can't keep their story straight.
If I wanted a narrative that never changes (even in the face of new information) I'd invent a religion; or a Philosophy.
Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: The Disinformation Age

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:48 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:42 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:44 pm
We know it was.

When you have a series of pronouncements that actually contradict one another, you can't know what the truth is -- except that whoever is speaking, they are lying or confused, because they can't keep their story straight.

The CDC didn't get it right the first time...or the second...or the third. Do they have it right now? Who knows? But we know beyond any shadow of doubt that they were "producing misinformation," and did so several times.
Are you referring to when the CDC said masks would not help any? Yes. We know that was a lie but they were saying it to discourage people from buying them up so that they would be available for hospital staff who needed them more.
Let's start with that. Let's pretend that's all there is (though, of course, there's certainly not: they've repeatedly flip-flopped on numerous issues.)

They were lying. It doesn't change anything if we think they "meant well." They didn't tell people the truth; they told them a flat lie. And when an agency does that, they needn't whine later if people ask, "How do we know you're not doing it again?"
It probably would have been best to tell the truth
It would have been right and moral. But they didn't do the right thing.

Don't excuse liars, Gary. They lied. They now admit they lied. If they're having credibility problems, it's their own fault.
OK. So now what do we do? Do we just ignore everything the CDC says, potentially compounding problems with the virus? I mean, I agree that it was stupid to lie and, yes, arguably immoral. But we should probably start trusting them at some point for reasons of public safety. Are they confused? Probably. This is the first major pandemic we've encountered since the Spanish Flu, and there are a lot of unknowns out there.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: The Disinformation Age

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:55 pm OK. So now what do we do? Do we just ignore everything the CDC says, potentially compounding problems with the virus?
They've put us in that position. We don't know if what they are telling us is the truth, or is another lie.

Since they lie, we have to trust something else: in this case, what we hear, but combined with our own critical faculties. We have to consider what they are telling us at the moment, but know that they also lie. I would suggest we pay more attention to physicans and infectious disease specialists who are less tied to political favours; we have less reason to suppose them willing to lie to us. They might have the expertise, but they have less powerful motivations to misrepresent what they know.

In any case, the CDC lies. We know that.
Are they confused? Probably.
Plausibly. But if true, that's not an excuse: that's another point for why we ought not to trust them. They lie, AND they don't always know what they're talking about, but they still want to talk as if they do? :shock:

Sheesh...that's a bad information source, for sure.

You started with a concerrn about "disinformation," Gary. Where did that go, when the CDC got mentioned? Did we forget it?
Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: The Disinformation Age

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:22 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:55 pm OK. So now what do we do? Do we just ignore everything the CDC says, potentially compounding problems with the virus?
They've put us in that position. We don't know if what they are telling us is the truth, or is another lie.

Since they lie, we have to trust something else: in this case, what we hear, but combined with our own critical faculties. We have to consider what they are telling us at the moment, but know that they also lie. I would suggest we pay more attention to physicans and infectious disease specialists who are less tied to political favours; we have less reason to suppose them willing to lie to us. They might have the expertise, but they have less powerful motivations to misrepresent what they know.

In any case, the CDC lies. We know that.
Are they confused? Probably.
Plausibly. But if true, that's not an excuse: that's another point for why we ought not to trust them. They lie, AND they don't always know what they're talking about, but they still want to talk as if they do? :shock:

Sheesh...that's a bad information source, for sure.

You started with a concerrn about "disinformation," Gary. Where did that go, when the CDC got mentioned? Did we forget it?
When I think of "disinformation" I think of deliberate lies done for nefarious purposes. I think most of the errors the CDC is guilty of (except of course the initial claim that PPE was useless--done ostensibly with good intentions) are probably more along the lines of confusion and therefore perhaps more like "misinformation" more so than "disinformation." I just wonder if there aren't propaganda campaigns out there to topple the West or something.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: The Disinformation Age

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:53 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:22 pm You started with a concerrn about "disinformation," Gary. Where did that go, when the CDC got mentioned? Did we forget it?
When I think of "disinformation" I think of deliberate lies done for nefarious purposes. I think most of the errors the CDC is guilty of (except of course the initial claim that PPE was useless--done ostensibly with good intentions) are probably more along the lines of confusion and therefore perhaps more like "misinformation" more so than "disinformation." I just wonder if there aren't propaganda campaigns out there to topple the West or something.
Oh, very likely.

But does it really matter what motives the people who provide mis/disinformation have? A lie is a lie, and we react to it by being misled, regardless of why it was launched in the first place.

Maybe it matters in the question of how severely we judge the liars once we catch them -- assuming we do. But it matters not at all in the question of whether the information is good or bad. It's bad either way, and equally so.
Walker
Posts: 14245
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: The Disinformation Age

Post by Walker »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:33 pm There seems to be a lot of misinformation going around on the Internet these days.
Disinformation is a tactic of war. With whom are disinformers at war?
Gary Childress
Posts: 7966
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: The Disinformation Age

Post by Gary Childress »

Walker wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:02 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:33 pm There seems to be a lot of misinformation going around on the Internet these days.
Disinformation is a tactic of war. With whom are disinformers at war?
Apparently us.
Walker
Posts: 14245
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: The Disinformation Age

Post by Walker »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:05 pm
Walker wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:02 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:33 pm There seems to be a lot of misinformation going around on the Internet these days.
Disinformation is a tactic of war. With whom are disinformers at war?
Apparently us.
I’d say that the disinformationalists are at war with whomever* does not buy into their narrative, for the disinformation invariably follows a narrative that defines what it is that comprises news and then slants the view of events into that narrative, as opposed to balanced reporting. For example, a persistent narrative in the US is now, not by accident, racism. Event reporting and selection of what defines news, now first flows through that racism narrative to define the cause of events.

Once you’ve been targeted as an enemy of the disinformation narrative, the next step is to discredit and demonize you, which of course is more disinformation.


* Is it whomever, or whoever?
commonsense
Posts: 5087
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: The Disinformation Age

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:48 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:42 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:44 pm
We know it was.

When you have a series of pronouncements that actually contradict one another, you can't know what the truth is -- except that whoever is speaking, they are lying or confused, because they can't keep their story straight.

The CDC didn't get it right the first time...or the second...or the third. Do they have it right now? Who knows? But we know beyond any shadow of doubt that they were "producing misinformation," and did so several times.
Are you referring to when the CDC said masks would not help any? Yes. We know that was a lie but they were saying it to discourage people from buying them up so that they would be available for hospital staff who needed them more.
Let's start with that. Let's pretend that's all there is (though, of course, there's certainly not: they've repeatedly flip-flopped on numerous issues.)

They were lying. It doesn't change anything if we think they "meant well." They didn't tell people the truth; they told them a flat lie. And when an agency does that, they needn't whine later if people ask, "How do we know you're not doing it again?"
It probably would have been best to tell the truth
It would have been right and moral. But they didn't do the right thing.

Don't excuse liars, Gary. They lied. They now admit they lied. If they're having credibility problems, it's their own fault.
I, for one, do not excuse them for lying.

I don’t find lying, from any source, alarming.

I am an adult; ergo I’ve been lied to many times.
DPMartin
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:11 am

Re: The Disinformation Age

Post by DPMartin »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:33 pm There seems to be a lot of misinformation going around on the Internet these days. From the Qanon weirdness to a tweet from a doctor that was reproduced making it appear that the CDC was producing misinformation about the Covid pandemic. How is this happening? Why is misinformation becoming such an issue now? Could it be from foreign countries trying to destabilize the developed world or has social media truly become a curse on the dissemination of information? Or both?

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-528961447371

https://theweek.com/coronavirus/1003095 ... ation-meme
don't listen to what some one says some one says, go to the source. get on the CDC site see what they say.

also i do believe CDC is a gov agency and yes there would be significant politics involved, that is influenced by special interests.

sucks to be cattle, eh.
Skepdick
Posts: 14347
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: The Disinformation Age

Post by Skepdick »

DPMartin wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:26 pm don't listen to what some one says some one says, go to the source. get on the CDC site see what they say.

also i do believe CDC is a gov agency and yes there would be significant politics involved, that is influenced by special interests.

sucks to be cattle, eh.
What good is reading from the source when one can't even understand what the words mean?

For example, the CDC recently announced that they will be retiring the RT-PCR test because (and I am quoting exactly the CDC report):

In preparation for this change, CDC recommends clinical laboratories and testing sites that have been using the CDC 2019-nCoV RT-PCR assay select and begin their transition to another FDA-authorized COVID-19 test. CDC encourages laboratories to consider adoption of a multiplexed method that can facilitate detection and differentiation of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza viruses.
Did the CDC say this? Yes! Of course they said this!

But did the CDC actually mean that the current test conflates SARS-CoV-2 and influenza? NO. The CDC didn't mean this because it's not true!

But everybody "heard" the CDC say something the CDC didn't actually say! And disinformation was born.
Post Reply