Basic Human Rights

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Re: Basic Human Rights

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gaffo wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:36 am
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:32 pm I guess another thread to my OP:

Is there such a thing as "god-given" or "natural" rights? Or are rights things that a society agrees upon based on what it believes it can fulfill for each other?
there is no God so God did not give right to man - man gave his rights to himself via his conscience which is a prodcut of DNA via evolution of man as a social animal.
What IS this God 'thing', which you say, THERE IS NONE OF.
gaffo wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:36 am yes inalienable rights are iinborn via DNA of man as correct conduct.
Will you provide ANY example/s of 'correct conduct'?
gaffo wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:36 am not a Truth - if man lack the dna to affirm inaienable rights he would no longer be a man but something els - and that thing would not affirm inalienable rights nor have a conscience as we understand it - if there were an Earth with such a "man" then his code wold be utterly alien and not affimr such a thin as "Rights" as you ad i understand them/
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:07 pm
gaffo wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:06 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:55 am
Okay, but if that's right, then the next question is going to be, "Well, then where do rights come from?" Because we're ruling out human institutions as a basis of rights...so if we have them, they have to come some other way.

What do you think that way is?
DNA via evolution of man as a social animal. as i said in my prior posts above Sir.
"Evolution" is an utterly impersonal process, and has no opinions about "rights."
How can 'evolution' be an "utterly impersonal process" when it was evolution how 'you', person's, came to be here?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:07 pm It's premised on "survival of the fittest," not "rights." So that answer just doesn't float the boat, I'm afraid.
But the 'fittest' are those who voluntary choose to follow the True, Correct, and Right 'rights'.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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commonsense wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:43 pm
gaffo wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:18 am
Age wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:39 am

If this was even remotely true, then how did human beings exist for millions of years, hitherto the day and age when this is being read?
don't play dumb Emmanual was correct.

man existed due to lviing to 30 at best and breeding more than dying from 2 million yrs ago to about 500 yrs ago.
If you add the criteria that there must be a degree of healthcare to consider, as opposed to the unqualified and unquantified health care that I was discussing, then of course there’s more and better healthcare than ever before, measured by longevity, birth rate or any other objective standard.

There may be those who would say that a foreign body removal, say a splinter from a toe, just isn’t an example of healthcare unless an MRI is involved, but, again, I was only concerned with the existence of any degree of healthcare.
What 'you', people, call and class as 'health care', in the days when this was written, is completely laughed at, in 'these' days.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:07 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:43 pm There may be those who would say that a foreign body removal, say a splinter from a toe, just isn’t an example of healthcare unless an MRI is involved, but, again, I was only concerned with the existence of any degree of healthcare.
It's not really a matter of "degree" though, CS.

Let's suppose you're walking by, and I'm sitting on a park bench, trying to get a splinter out of my toe...on what basis can I foist a claim on you that you have to remove it yourself, or even pay somebody else to do it? What gives me the right to make such a claim on you? Why is my toe your problem?
Either an attempt at DISTRACTION, or you are completely and utterly MISSING THE POINT here.

The POINT IS, human beings have being caring for each other's health since human beings have been in existence, or in other words 'health care' has always been in existence as long as human beings have.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:07 pm Now, I might well agree that if you stop and help me, you're a good chap. And if you pay for somebody else to do it, I might call you generous. But if it was my "right" all along, I won't need to say thank you, because you were obligated morally to do it for me anyway. It was my "right," and if you DIDN'T help me, you were in violation of my rights.

Does that sound right to you? If it does, you'd best explain how.
You are so FAR OFF TRACK.

Also, 'money' has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with health care.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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commonsense wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:49 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:07 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:43 pm There may be those who would say that a foreign body removal, say a splinter from a toe, just isn’t an example of healthcare unless an MRI is involved, but, again, I was only concerned with the existence of any degree of healthcare.
It's not really a matter of "degree" though, CS.

Let's suppose you're walking by, and I'm sitting on a park bench, trying to get a splinter out of my toe...on what basis can I foist a claim on you that you have to remove it yourself, or even pay somebody else to do it? What gives me the right to make such a claim on you? Why is my toe your problem?

Now, I might well agree that if you stop and help me, you're a good chap. And if you pay for somebody else to do it, I might call you generous. But if it was my "right" all along, I won't need to say thank you, because you were obligated morally to do it for me anyway. It was my "right," and if you DIDN'T help me, you were in violation of my rights.

Does that sound right to you? If it does, you'd best explain how.
I like your scenario.

You’re in luck! I’m a doctor and I am committed to seeing that anyone with a legitimate claim to healthcare, I.e. anyone who is human, is certain to have his healthcare right fulfilled.

You need not thank me, because I am a dedicated healthcare professional. You need not pay me, for I am already gainfully employed.

Unfortunately, there are a large number of people for whom their right is not fulfilled. Their right to access medical care is not being denied as much as the availability of healthcare resources is lacking.

Long before our encounter in the park, there were medicine men who held my role. There has always been someone in my role, someone who gives aid and assistance to others.
Giving birth, itself, and the following behaviors is providing health care for the newly born human being. This has been happening since human beings have been in existence.

If this is NOT CORRECT to ANY one, then explain HOW and WHY NOT.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:18 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:49 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:07 pm
It's not really a matter of "degree" though, CS.

Let's suppose you're walking by, and I'm sitting on a park bench, trying to get a splinter out of my toe...on what basis can I foist a claim on you that you have to remove it yourself, or even pay somebody else to do it? What gives me the right to make such a claim on you? Why is my toe your problem?

Now, I might well agree that if you stop and help me, you're a good chap. And if you pay for somebody else to do it, I might call you generous. But if it was my "right" all along, I won't need to say thank you, because you were obligated morally to do it for me anyway. It was my "right," and if you DIDN'T help me, you were in violation of my rights.

Does that sound right to you? If it does, you'd best explain how.
I like your scenario.

You’re in luck! I’m a doctor...
But that's just luck, as you say. Most people are not. So it doesn't answer the question.

The obvious fact remains that most people should not be mucking about with my splinter, even if I want them to...and I think you'd agree, definitely not with my failing kidney, my heart valve, or my hip replacement. Those are strictly professional jobs.

So you're suggesting that, since I still have a "right" to medical care, they "owe it" to me to pay for my splinter removal, my hip replacement, or perhaps my sex change? :shock:

Explain how that happens: how did they come to owe me their money in that way?
Human beings, and their 'rights', if they have any, have been around for millions of years. Money has only been around for a few thousand years, if that, which is relatively next to NO period of time. So, WHY are 'you', human beings, in the days when this was written so FIXATED on MONEY, as though that has ANY importance at all to 'rights'?
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:27 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:49 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:07 pm
It's not really a matter of "degree" though, CS.

Let's suppose you're walking by, and I'm sitting on a park bench, trying to get a splinter out of my toe...on what basis can I foist a claim on you that you have to remove it yourself, or even pay somebody else to do it? What gives me the right to make such a claim on you? Why is my toe your problem?

Now, I might well agree that if you stop and help me, you're a good chap. And if you pay for somebody else to do it, I might call you generous. But if it was my "right" all along, I won't need to say thank you, because you were obligated morally to do it for me anyway. It was my "right," and if you DIDN'T help me, you were in violation of my rights.

Does that sound right to you? If it does, you'd best explain how.
I like your scenario.

You’re in luck! I’m a doctor and I am committed to seeing that anyone with a legitimate claim to healthcare, I.e. anyone who is human, is certain to have his healthcare right fulfilled.

You need not thank me, because I am a dedicated healthcare professional. You need not pay me, for I am already gainfully employed.

Unfortunately, there are a large number of people for whom their right is not fulfilled. Their right to access medical care is not being denied as much as the availability of healthcare resources is lacking.

Long before our encounter in the park, there were medicine men who held my role. There has always been someone in my role, someone who gives aid and assistance to others.
Fantastic! You, of your own choosin', extend aid. And you do it free of charge!

Great!

I prefer, however, not to use you. I don't trust altruistic folks. Me, I'll keep payin' my doc for services rendered.
And MOST people do not trust people like 'you', 'henry quirk", who would take the life of "another" just because of the way you view things.

You claim; "A man has a right to life", yet you would take away this right, and the life of another, just because they touched something, which you claim is "yours".
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:01 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:34 pm “They” are the doctors and medicine men, not just anyone at all. There’s always going to be someone in that role. I came to owe you my services by way of accepting my role.
So if you are prepared to bear the burden of providing my, and everyone else's medical care, that's just fine. I'm sure nobody minds. If you think it's a sacred mission of all doctors to heal all patients at their own expense, fine-o.

But that's not the question. The question is why my neighbour, the plumber, or my other neighbour, the postman, or my other neighbour, the farmer, owes me money to pay for my splinter, my hip or my sex change.

From where do I get the "right" to make him pay?
This is a PRIME EXAMPLE of WHY 'you', human beings, after thousands of years of discussing, so called, "philosophical issues" have STILL NOT YET resolved much at all.

You started out here talking about 'human rights', and have now progressed to exploring your OWN BELIEFS about WHY or WHY NOT "should" some people PAY for the care of "others".

Which, by the way, is a typical view of, so called, "christians". "christians" are MEANT TO BE about 'helping and loving thy neighbor", but are so FIXATED on obtaining MORE MONEY they will 'fight to death' that they SHOULD NOT pay to help those who are less fortunate, even if it includes saving their lives.

Your distorted views and beliefs "immanuel can" are typical and prime examples of the country and era that you would brought up and existed in.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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henry quirk wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:12 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:01 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:34 pm “They” are the doctors and medicine men, not just anyone at all. There’s always going to be someone in that role. I came to owe you my services by way of accepting my role.
So if you are prepared to bear the burden of providing my, and everyone else's medical care, that's just fine. I'm sure nobody minds. If you think it's a sacred mission of all doctors to heal all patients at their own expense, fine-o.

But that's not the question. The question is why my neighbour, the plumber, or my other neighbour, the postman, or my other neighbour, the farmer, owes me money to pay for my splinter, my hip or my sex change.

*From where do I get the "right" to make him pay?
*Mebbe it's supposed to be cultural. In the same way Common accepted the role of medicine man, your neighbor should accept his havin' to pay into the community pot. Not so much that you have the right to make him pay as he has the obligation to pay.

It's crap..just re-castin' your right as his duty...the result is the same: your neighbor is forced to do that which he may not willingly choose to do...he is used as resource, as property.
If one would KILL DEAD a human being just because a human being touched that one's "own" toothpick, then that one would also have this DISTORTED VIEW of things.

If you walk past a child you seeing dying, for ANY reason, which you could prevent, do you not feel ANY 'obligation' at all to help, and just keep walking?
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:38 am
commonsense wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:17 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:01 pm
So if you are prepared to bear the burden of providing my, and everyone else's medical care, that's just fine. I'm sure nobody minds. If you think it's a sacred mission of all doctors to heal all patients at their own expense, fine-o.

But that's not the question. The question is why my neighbour, the plumber, or my other neighbour, the postman, or my other neighbour, the farmer, owes me money to pay for my splinter, my hip or my sex change.

From where do I get the "right" to make him pay?
None of your neighbors has to pay.
So you're going to pick up the entire cost of everybody's medical procedure?
'you', adult human beings, will say just about ANY thing, in the hope that it will back up and support your ALREADY held onto views and BELIEFS.

'you' are SO FAR OFF TRACK here it is BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS. This is just blatant fallacy arguing.

You're fine with doing that? So nobody ends up paying, except you?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:38 am You must be very, very rich if you can do that for everyone. I don't think Bill Gates has that kind of cash. I've got to call "bluff" on that one.
AGAIN, all about MONEY.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:37 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:35 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:38 am
So you're going to pick up the entire cost of everybody's medical procedure? You're fine with doing that? So nobody ends up paying, except you?

You must be very, very rich if you can do that for everyone. I don't think Bill Gates has that kind of cash. I've got to call "bluff" on that one.
Everyone pays into it with their share of taxes and everyone is eligible to use it. And doctors get paid for their services.
Well, we know how Medicare works, of course, Gary; the question is not that, though. The question is, "Can Medicare be a basic human right?"
Caring for a new born's health, or in other words 'health care', is a basic human right. And has been since 'you', human beings, came into existence.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:37 pm The answer's obviously "No."
'Medicare' involves and revolves around money. Money has only existed for a relatively very short period. Human rights has existed since human beings have existed, which has been for a LOT LONGER PERIOD.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:37 pm Medicare does not exist naturally, is not available everywhere, was at one time not even invented, was not promised or endowed by God, is not evidently tied to any property of human beings, and requires the taking of some people's money to serve the interests of another group.
We all KNOW this. But we were NOT talking about 'medicare'. We were talking about 'health care'. Two VERY, VERY DIFFERENT things.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:37 pm None of that is the sort of thing that can be called a "right" at all. It's merely a contingent human arrangement -- nowhere guaranteed by the order of the universe.
EXACTLY.

BUT, 'health care' is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ISSUE.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:44 pm
commonsense wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:55 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:38 am
So you're going to pick up the entire cost of everybody's medical procedure? You're fine with doing that? So nobody ends up paying, except you?

You must be very, very rich if you can do that for everyone. I don't think Bill Gates has that kind of cash. I've got to call "bluff" on that one.
You should re-read a few posts up from here where you’ll find what I wrote about who pays if you cannot.
I don't need to reread. I know what you were really trying to say. You're talking about taking one people's money, and using it to meet the medical interests of another group. Henry might call it theft, but I'd just call it a forced arrangement. It has good aspects and bad.
your True greedy "christian" ways are SHINING BRIGHTLY now.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:44 pm And you can do that, if people will let you. But you can't call it a "right," because it's unrelated to anyone's status as human, is not intrinsic, and is not backed by the Creator's authority. So you could maybe call it a "social benefit."
you speak as though you could for the Creator correctly, but you are so FAR OFF TRACK and MISSING THE POINT that it is NOT even funny anymore.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:44 pm I know why people want to call it a "right." Rights are things that no person can legitimately deny another. And people who love the universal health insurance idea want to invest it with the glow of a "right," so they can make others think they can't legitimately take exception to being taxed in order to produce it. But all of that is just a shell game.
AGAIN, 'money'.

'you', adult human beings, in the days when this was written, treated money as though it was a God.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:44 pm Health care has never been a "basic human right," and lacks the fundamental characteristics of the human rights we know...life, liberty and property.
IF 'you', human beings, have a right 'to life', then you have a right 'to health care'. In fact, and OBVIOUSLY, if a new born does not receive health care, then they die. End of story.

If you still can not yet see this FACT, then so be it.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:15 pm
commonsense wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:05 pm ...if there’s a right to life, there must be a right to be free of deadly situations...
Actually, no...that doesn't follow logically at all.

Life is full of risks and perils, and eventually, everyone dies. We are not guaranteed freedom from difficulties and dangers; what we are guaranteed, by way of our births, is that we have a right to be here in the first place, that we have liberty to move and act, and that some things are legitimately under our control and disposal. Apart from those three things, moral accountability is impossible, so Locke says that's why we know God has guaranteed them to us.

No such guarantee exists for health care, or even for freedom from injury or death. In fact, one guarantee we do have is mortality. The death rate around here is 100%...everybody dies.
The saying, 'Truth is stranger than fiction', is very applicable here.

What 'you', people, BELIEVE is true, in the days when this was written, is actually fiction, and thee ACTUAL Truth is far more stranger to 'you', people, than you could have ever realized.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:14 pm
commonsense wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:50 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:15 pm
Actually, no...that doesn't follow logically at all.

Life is full of risks and perils, and eventually, everyone dies. We are not guaranteed freedom from difficulties and dangers; what we are guaranteed, by way of our births, is that we have a right to be here in the first place, that we have liberty to move and act, and that some things are legitimately under our control and disposal. Apart from those three things, moral accountability is impossible, so Locke says that's why we know God has guaranteed them to us.

No such guarantee exists for health care, or even for freedom from injury or death. In fact, one guarantee we do have is mortality. The death rate around here is 100%...everybody dies.
Ah! I see now my mistake. I had been all along tying healthcare to a right to life. Not anymore.
Hmmm...well, nobody's denying that healthcare is helpful to life...but it's not really a very good rejoinder.

After all, there are lots of things that are associated with "life" that nobody thinks of as "rights." In fact, food and water come before healthcare, for sure.
Providing food and water IS 'health care'.

If an adult did NOT provide food and water to a child, then the child becomes 'unhealthy', OBVIOUSLY.

When one rids "them self" of the ASSUMPTION that 'health care' has to involve money, then 'things' start becoming FAR MORE CLEARER.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:14 pm But there is no proposal that says, "Human beings have an unalienable, basic human right to eat and drink other people's food and water." In fact, a person can live indefinitely, up to perhaps a hundred years or so, without healthcare, so long as illness or injury does not occur.
Maybe if you defined and/or explained what the words 'health care' actually mean and/or refers to, then what you are so desperately 'trying to' fight and argue for might be better understood.

Your BELIEFS, which you are so desperately 'trying to' argue and fight for, can ALREADY be CLEARLY SEEN and KNOWN, but NOT YET by ALL. So, how about defining what the words 'health care' means, to you?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:14 pm And what about "education"? Is that also a "basic human right"? We all need it. Or how about "a living wage," is that another?
LOL 'you', human beings, in those days when this was written are SO DISTORTED and TWISTED. "A living wage", this is BEYOND a joke. you, people, say and believe some of the most absurd and ridiculous things.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:14 pm What about a "right" to vote, a "right" to choose gender...and so on? We can pile up allegations of "rights" like cordwood, as many as our imaginings can devise. But can we explain why we have a right to claim them in a society that doesn't yet have them? :shock: So the crucial thing is whether or not we have a rationale proving the right exists, and exists by the intrinsic nature of being human.

Barring that, it's a social privilege, yes. It may even be "a good thing," or "something we would all wish." Nevertheless, it's quite a different thing to say it's a basic human right. You'd need a rationale like Locke's to get it to that status.
And if 'you' NEED another human being, or thing, to follow, then 'you' REALLY do NOT YET KNOW who 'you' ARE.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:14 pm And I don't think you can find one. For it's true that no human being has ever come into existence without a right to life, liberty and property;
LOL what 'property' do 'you', human beings, think you own, and thus have a right to?

What a joke this is. Provide examples, and let us LOOK AT them and DISCUSS.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:14 pm but it's not true that healthcare has even existed in all times and places...far less a comprehensive, tax-funded system of Medicare, which is a very modern innovation indeed.

How can something so new ever actually be shown to be a "basic human right"? :shock: If you know how, go ahead. I'm listening.
But 'health care' is NOT "something so new". This is just what you think and BELIEVE is true.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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commonsense wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:51 pm As I said earlier, healthcare is not a recent phenomenon.

Are we not much more likely to have a right to death than a right to life? Once born the only guarantee is that we will die.
This all depends on who and what the 'we' is. Again, 'Truth is actually stranger than fiction', and 'we' do NOT necessarily die at all. Saying, " 'we' will die ", is actually fiction. But this is still some time away, from 'you', human beings, FULLY understanding this.
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