Presumed guilty until proven innocent

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wtf
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by wtf » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:47 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:15 pm


thats quite a charge, would welcome evidence to support it.
It's a matter of objective fact.


The Bill of Rights 1689 grants the parliamentary privilege for freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament and is still in effect. United Kingdom citizens have a negative right to freedom of expression under the common law.[149] In 1998, the United Kingdom incorporated the European Convention, and the guarantee of freedom of expression it contains in Article 10, into its domestic law under the Human Rights Act. However, there is a broad sweep of exceptions including threatening, abusive or insulting words or behavior intending or likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress or cause a breach of the peace ...
My emphasis. The bolded part is EXACTLY what the American first amendment protects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_o ... ed_Kingdom

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QuantumT
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by QuantumT » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:49 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:45 pm
yep.


https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2106476/

excellent movie if you have not seen it. recommend.
Seen it. I'm a dane. It was the "must see" movie of 2012 in Denmark.

gaffo
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by gaffo » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:49 pm

wtf wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:43 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:15 pm
wtf wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:05 pm

The UK doesn't have a first amendment equivalent
thats quite a charge, would welcome evidence to support it.
It's a matter of objective fact.
thanks for the nothing-reply.

again would welcome proof of your assurtion - via real world examples - High Court rulings etc........over these last 3 centuries nullifing Free speach in the UK.

I'm an American so no need to educate me on our Bill of Rights.

Request you educate me on the UK's nullification of Free Speech via High court rulings.

gaffo
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by gaffo » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:51 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:49 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:45 pm
yep.


https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2106476/

excellent movie if you have not seen it. recommend.
Seen it. I'm a dane. It was the "must see" movie of 2012 in Denmark.
oh i see, you a Dane? then you've also seen Borgen no doubt.

thanks for the info of where you are. noted.

gaffo
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by gaffo » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:54 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:49 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:45 pm
yep.


https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2106476/

excellent movie if you have not seen it. recommend.
Seen it. I'm a dane. It was the "must see" movie of 2012 in Denmark.
thanks for giving us the Jury BTW. good idea from your ancestral countrymen.

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QuantumT
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by QuantumT » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:57 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:51 pm
oh i see, you a Dane? then you've also seen Borgen no doubt.
I don't watch drama TV-shows, no matter the language.

The Jury? :?:
Last edited by QuantumT on Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

wtf
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by wtf » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:00 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:49 pm
thanks for the nothing-reply.

again would welcome proof of your assurtion - via real world examples - High Court rulings etc........over these last 3 centuries nullifing Free speach in the UK.
If the Tommy Robinson case doesn't do it for you I have no idea what would convince you.

gaffo
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by gaffo » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:03 am

wtf wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:44 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:13 pm
who is Tommy Robinson?
https://news.sky.com/story/march-agains ... y-11400086
ok - never heard of him - so he is a Rube/Hayseed/REdneck Brexit/Trumpster nativist who violated a court order to remian silent per a particular cours case - and did not remain so and so was charged, and hen presumed convicted and put in jail.

your point per "free speech" - i think the same would happen for an American in similar circumstances - no?

gaffo
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by gaffo » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:08 am

QuantumT wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:57 pm

The Jury? :?:
yep Danes per their invasion of northern England imported the use of "The Jury" for trials.

prior norman law did not have juries.

and so i thank your ancestors for this, since America inherited post norman law - including your Danish jury into our crimal law jurisprudince.

we know about Zinger and i value FIJA.org - if most of my countrymen do not and/or are ignorant of such things.

gaffo
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by gaffo » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:12 am

wtf wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:47 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:15 pm


thats quite a charge, would welcome evidence to support it.
It's a matter of objective fact.


The Bill of Rights 1689 grants the parliamentary privilege for freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament and is still in effect. United Kingdom citizens have a negative right to freedom of expression under the common law.[149] In 1998, the United Kingdom incorporated the European Convention, and the guarantee of freedom of expression it contains in Article 10, into its domestic law under the Human Rights Act. However, there is a broad sweep of exceptions including threatening, abusive or insulting words or behavior intending or likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress or cause a breach of the peace ...
My emphasis. The bolded part is EXACTLY what the American first amendment protects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_o ... ed_Kingdom
Jordan Peterson is fighting this war via "bill c16" in cananda.

so i get your point. hate PC "thought crime" crap too.


--------

but have little to no sympathy for Nationalist Brexit/Trumster chimpazees either

wtf
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by wtf » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:17 am

gaffo wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:03 am
ok - never heard of him - so he is a Rube/Hayseed/REdneck Brexit/Trumpster nativist who violated a court order to remian silent per a particular cours case - and did not remain so and so was charged, and hen presumed convicted and put in jail.

your point per "free speech" - i think the same would happen for an American in similar circumstances - no?
Someone standing in a public place and reporting on a trial in progress? No, such a person could never be charged under US law. Reporting is not a crime in the US. Even for rednecks and hayseeds. But this is exactly my point. In the US, free speech applies to everyone, even those you personally disagree with.

gaffo
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by gaffo » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:23 am

wtf wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:17 am
gaffo wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:03 am
ok - never heard of him - so he is a Rube/Hayseed/REdneck Brexit/Trumpster nativist who violated a court order to remian silent per a particular cours case - and did not remain so and so was charged, and hen presumed convicted and put in jail.

your point per "free speech" - i think the same would happen for an American in similar circumstances - no?
Someone standing in a public place and reporting on a trial in progress? No, such a person could never be charged under US law. Reporting is not a crime in the US. Even for rednecks and hayseeds.
the linkyou provided did not offer details. i'm a reasonable man - if the details you offer are accurate then i would have a problem with the actions of the UK gov/police.


wtf wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:17 am
But this is exactly my point. In the US, free speech applies to everyone, even those you personally disagree with.
usually - though - thanks to Clinton/PC crowd - we've had reprehensible "hate speech" laws for the last 20 yrs which are clearly anti-1st amendment.

and to date are still Rule of Law and not repealed.

wtf
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by wtf » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:32 am

gaffo wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:23 am

the linkyou provided did not offer details. i'm a reasonable man - if the details you offer are accurate then i would have a problem with the actions of the UK gov/police.
There is extensive, and I mean EXTENSIVE, reporting on this case outside of England. Within England, you are not allowed to report on it. I'm a little too busy at the moment to curate the hundreds of articles about this case. Google "Tommy Robinson."
gaffo wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:23 am

usually - though - thanks to Clinton/PC crowd - we've had reprehensible "hate speech" laws for the last 20 yrs which are clearly anti-1st amendment.

and to date are still Rule of Law and not repealed.
True. And when these cases get to the Supreme Court, the supes invariably rule on the side of free speech. But free speech is under attack by the left, no question about it. And the right, so nobody has to take me to task on that point. But the attacks on free speech from the left are disturbing because the left didn't used to operate that way.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:45 am

wtf wrote: ps -- sorry I read back a couple of posts and I see you are already mentioning this case. So you think someone should be thrown in jail for simply reporting on a trial. And that if you report on his imprisonment, YOU'RE committing a crime. I think you've lost perspective here.
I don't think so, prejudicing trials gives defence lawyers the opportunity to claim mis-trial which is a costly and time consuming process which is exactly what the judges are trying to prevent. I do agree that gag orders appear to be being used to often nowadays but with the modern media what else can one do?
There's a danger in letting the government decide who is a journalist. Courts in the US (aka "the colonies") have ruled that the first amendment applies to citizen journalists as well as staffers at the New York Times (who sleep with their sources to get scoops, as it turns out). A passerby with a smartphone who sees a cop misbehaving is every bit as entitled to first amendment protection as a credentialed reporter for some lying corrupt MSM outfit. This is as it should be. You don't want the government to license or approve of certain people as official journalists. That's the opposite of a free press. …
The government is not deciding who can or cannot be a journalist, the courts are trying to ensure, as much as is possible, that trial juries are not being pre-prejudiced which could cause a re-trial. Yaxley-Lennon was perfectly free to report what he thought about the trials after the verdict was reached and he was actually reporting on a continuation of a trial where he had already been given a suspended sentence for breaking the gagging order with respect to this case. Personally I think anyone who opens their 'report' with 'morning lads hope you got your prison bags ready and looking forward to long stay' or some such is far from reporting news.

A passerby with a smartphone who records a cop misbehaving should be handing their evidence over to the victim's defence lawyers.
The UK doesn't have a first amendment equivalent, and in arising_uk's posts you can see how this makes free speech a lost cause in Britain.
It's not a lost cause, its just trying to balance it with the right of the accused to a fair and free trial without the 'renta-mobs' input. Personally I think one of the big problems with modern social media is exactly this kind of trial by Twatter, Wastebook and BoobTube.
p.s.
I also didn't say he wasn't a journalist just that if he was then that makes BoobTube, et al publishers which is something they wish to avoid as they would then be subject to the publishing laws.
Last edited by Arising_uk on Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Presumed guilty until proven innocent

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:47 am

gaffo wrote:is this so? welcome understanding of this.
Why would you give the Police the chance to clear crimes from their books?

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