What is Consciousness?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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evangelicalhumanist
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by evangelicalhumanist »

Izzywizzy wrote:You don`t need to apoligise to me Chaz you just need to start addressing what I actually wrote and linked to and not what you want to blow your hot air at
Well, not everyone agrees with Tallis (the article with which you opened this thread). Here, for example, is one example of those who think that Tallis is not really getting it, either.

http://philosophyofbrains.com/2011/03/0 ... media.aspx

What, by the way, are Tallis's credentials as a neuroscientist or consciousness investigator? I know he studied as a medical doctor, he by no means specializes in consciousness or neuroscience. In fact, he mostly just writes...
chaz wyman
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by chaz wyman »

Izzywizzy wrote:You don`t need to apoligise to me Chaz you just need to start addressing what I actually wrote and linked to and not what you want to blow your hot air at
Actually I did. Maybe you read it and saw only what you wanted to see- because there was fuck all in it for you.
If you are dissatisfied - it is with yourself.
Izzywizzy
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by Izzywizzy »

Do you know chaz WHY?man? you never fail to disappoint me..you always have to lower intelligent debate to your curve base called insult the poster rather than address the issues posted..

what you fail to read is the FACTS that I presented from science..current science.., SCIENTISTS differ just like schools of thought and religions and politicians differ in opinion..you can`t even show any evidence to me in what you claim you are supposed to be speaking for ...and the fact is contemporary science speaks about consciousness which i linked to.. contemporary science.. and what it say`s..yet you deem you can ignore all this evidence and instead of proving any case you think you have just do the usual chaz thing and attack me persoanlly wow what is new here? YAWN

note for chaz ..next time you reply to me..make it worth my while to read it..snooze!!!! or expect i will ignore your posts

um @ EH i mentioned a darn sight more than Tallis don`t you go thinking i will be narrowing this debate down to your standards
chaz wyman
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by chaz wyman »

Izzywizzy wrote:Do you know chaz WHY?man? you never fail to disappoint me..you always have to lower intelligent debate to your curve base called insult the poster rather than address the issues posted..

what you fail to read is the FACTS that I presented from science..current science.., SCIENTISTS

What "FACTS" do you think you presented?

differ just like schools of thought and religions and politicians differ in opinion..you can`t even show any evidence to me in what you claim you are supposed to be speaking for ...and the fact is contemporary science speaks about consciousness which i linked to.. contemporary science.. and what it say`s..yet you deem you can ignore all this evidence and instead of proving any case you think you have just do the usual chaz thing and attack me persoanlly wow what is new here? YAWN

"YAWN" - you got that right!


note for chaz ..next time you reply to me..make it worth my while to read it..snooze!!!! or expect i will ignore your posts

Please ignore me as you will, I will not miss anything you say - it's rarely worthwhile.

um @ EH i mentioned a darn sight more than Tallis don`t you go thinking i will be narrowing this debate down to your standards
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Grim
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by Grim »

Forgive me for not having ready all responses to this, or even much of the supporting material presented originally.

I would like to share an interesting idea that I came across reading David Chalmers' recent The Character of Consciousness. His postulate is that perhaps consciousness will come to be treated as a fundamental in the same way that there are fundamental particles in physics.

I don't have much supporting material on this view aside from the text referenced.

Great topic, interested in all responses.
Izzywizzy
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by Izzywizzy »

Grim its an idea you offer and for me ideas are what matter and should matter to science....often if they lead to no go areas..at least they made an attempt..
but science today plays god..it doesn`t suggest experiment..it suggests answers..full stop..everyday someone takes a drug their scientific doc told them works..only to find it disagreed with them..equally everyday they take a drug tested that does actually work for some reason..get my point..?
I am not against science until it suggests it knows what consciousness is and if it doesn`t it means it doesn`t exist?
that is the problem here..awareness of self and self reflection as a human does not mean we can speak for other entities even scientifically..a scientist is after all only a human being..mother nature in his face erupting ie volcanoes etc he is non plussed by with all his scientific gear..he or she is not god..how does he account for plant life or wild life exisiting and being more powerful than he? he is only a human being not an animal being or a tree being..or a tsunami being is he?

I asked what is consciousness?..someone answered me already his name is Bernard..he said if its living its conscious..that makes some sort of sense to me.. although dead men do speak..we read their literature everyday
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Arising_uk
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by Arising_uk »

Izzywizzy wrote:... he is only a human being not an animal being ..
!!?? So if we are not animals what are we? Oh! Thats right! We are animals, of the primate family I'd heard.
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by Izzywizzy »

arising speak for yourself i am not an animal i am a human being with what sicentifc men term as animal instincts..i call my instincts natural not animal btw ie we all know how to survive there is no proof the first human came from apes or the fancy title cro magnan the scientist today has lost touch with nature he prescribes unnatural synthetic foods and drugs

if only man as human could learn why nature not abuse nature..for the most highest quality any human can have is an appreciation of nature after all its what we are given to survive on and WITH..man is natural as are animals and wild volcanoes and plants..this does not mean they are the same..or from the same source..it means consciousness nis natural and alive..and i correct myself..dead men don`t talk..but their words live on through narrow minded men i might add in our institutions. History is only written and allowed to live on by the victors..be sure..whilst humans like to think they evolve..many a teacher puts them back in time and dumbs them down and not forward in time to progress them.

Consciousness isn`t brainwASHED THINKING EITHER BUT THE MASSES LIKE SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER FOLLOW THEIR DOCTRINES CALLED REASON LOL LOL LOL
chaz wyman
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by chaz wyman »

Izzywizzy wrote:arising speak for yourself i am not an animal i am a human being with what sicentifc men term as animal instincts..i call my instincts natural not animal btw ie we all know how to survive there is no proof the first human came from apes or the fancy title cro magnan the scientist today has lost touch with nature he prescribes unnatural synthetic foods and drugs

if only man as human could learn why nature not abuse nature..for the most highest quality any human can have is an appreciation of nature after all its what we are given to survive on and WITH..man is natural as are animals and wild volcanoes and plants..this does not mean they are the same..or from the same source..it means consciousness nis natural and alive..and i correct myself..dead men don`t talk..but their words live on through narrow minded men i might add in our institutions. History is only written and allowed to live on by the victors..be sure..whilst humans like to think they evolve..many a teacher puts them back in time and dumbs them down and not forward in time to progress them.

Consciousness isn`t brainwASHED THINKING EITHER BUT THE MASSES LIKE SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER FOLLOW THEIR DOCTRINES CALLED REASON LOL LOL LOL

Doctrine and reason are at opposite ends of the same spectrum.

This is reason:
man is natural as are animals and wild volcanoes and plants..this does not mean they are the same
Why knock it, WHy attack what you use everyday?
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Arising_uk
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by Arising_uk »

Izzywizzy wrote:arising speak for yourself i am not an animal i am a human being with what sicentifc men term as animal instincts..i call my instincts natural not animal btw ie we all know how to survive there is no proof the first human came from apes or the fancy title cro magnan the scientist today has lost touch with nature he prescribes unnatural synthetic foods and drugs.

if only man as human could learn why nature not abuse nature..for the most highest quality any human can have is an appreciation of nature after all its what we are given to survive on and WITH..man is natural as are animals and wild volcanoes and plants..this does not mean they are the same..or from the same source..it means consciousness nis natural and alive..and i correct myself..dead men don`t talk..but their words live on through narrow minded men i might add in our institutions. History is only written and allowed to live on by the victors..be sure..whilst humans like to think they evolve..many a teacher puts them back in time and dumbs them down and not forward in time to progress them.

Consciousness isn`t brainwASHED THINKING EITHER BUT THE MASSES LIKE SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER FOLLOW THEIR DOCTRINES CALLED REASON LOL LOL LOL
:shock: I don't know whether to LMAO, ROFL or :cry:

You appear in danger of becoming one of the teachers you decry. So allow me to help you with a couple of things.

Your ideas about evolutionary biology appear to be stuck in the 1920's as the theory does not say we come from apes, we are 'apes' in a sense as we are of the primate family. Think of the other apes, chimps and monkeys as our cousins not our ancestors. Evolution says that its that we share common ancestors with them, not that we have evolved from them.

Biology does not say that we are all descended from the Cro-Magnon, just some of us have them as ancestors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon ... non_people

So you are saying your not one of these?
"Animal" - http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Animal

I have no idea what you mean by "instincts" natural or animal. Do you mean that you get hungry, thirsty, horny, scared, angry, etc?

You confidently state that "we all know how to survive" so I assume you mean survival is an instinct? If so then I'll take a bet that you haven't got this instinct, as I think that if I dropped you in the wild with no help you'd be dead in a matter of months, if not weeks.

I had no idea that scientists prescribed any food other than fresh fuit, veg, fish and meat now and then? Are you talking about agriculture, animal husbandry and the overuse of chemicals, is this what you mean by "synthetic foods and drugs"? If so then I think these things have helped us get to the point where only a tiny percentage die from lack of food and many live longer than they ever would have. In fact it looks like the thing we call civilization occurred exactly because man started mucking about with nature, i.e. wheat cultivation and medicine.

I think the highest quality of man as human is to appreciate ones fellow man. Nature for the longest part of human history has been inimicable towards us as it doesn't give a toss about our survival and in general has tried to eat or kill us. Its only recently that this idea of 'appreciation' has come into existence, although I'd agree that something like it exists within those societies that still fundamentally live within it.

What the hell is a "wild volcano"? Although I agree that man is natural, as is consciousness, I find myself baffled that you think we do not come from the same 'source' as all the other living things. You think the sidhe or fairies made us? 'God'? The FSM(this one is the correct answer).

You have a serious chip upon your shoulder about the masculine sex.

Whilst its true that history is written by the victor, the victor can also become the vanquished and as such history has had many revisionist phases. So truth generally outs in the long history run, unfortunately due to the nature of the subject its way to late for many.

What do you mean by "humans like to think they evolve"? We pretty much know that we've not evolved since we split from the ancestor that produced us and the ancestor of the chimp. Do we think that we could not evolve again? No, but at present we see no major mutation that, given a change in enviroment(or not), would confer a greater reproduction survival rate upon its inheritors. In my opinion any evolution going on now is cultural and it'll be Lamarkian as its down to education and wealth, both of which can be acquired in the present and passed on to ones progeny to assist their survival and chances of reproduction. Of course these might, in the future, allow one to actually 'evolve' ones children by tailoring their genes for specific purposes.

Chaz has already pointed out your error with respect to doctrine and reason. I just wonder why you suddENLY START TALKING IN CAPITALS AT TIMES? It reads odd to these ears as it sounds like you've starTED SHOUTING.
Last edited by Arising_uk on Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Arising_uk
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by Arising_uk »

duszek wrote:Mr. Arising, I do not quite agree with your line of reasoning.

Some people who are atheists say: what does it matter whether I die now or later ? what does it matter ?
And those who believe in afterlife say: it does matter because my life on earth is just one part of a continuum which goes on after my death. So everything matters because my soul moves from one phase to another.
Sorry duszek I missed this.

I agree that there are such people. The first I think are generally ex-theists who have become atheists and embraced nihilism as a consequence of their loss in faith that there is a greater thing supplying there meaning. All I can say is that it does not matter if you die now or later to anyone else but you, so make your choice.

The latter say what they do because they have some kind of judge or arbiter who is going to make their afterlife better or worse than their life. To them I say, what if there is no such judement but there is an afterlife. Why do you wish to hang around in this one?
Last edited by Arising_uk on Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
duszek
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by duszek »

Last Judgement could just be a metaphor.
Like eating the wrong apple is a metaphor for sin.

Sin is that you choose to go away from God (or the good).

And if you are far away from the good when you die you have a long way to go in the afterlife to get to the good again.
chaz wyman
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by chaz wyman »

duszek wrote:Last Judgement could just be a metaphor.
Like eating the wrong apple is a metaphor for sin.

Sin is that you choose to go away from God (or the good).

WHo's to say what is sinful and what is not?
Which God?


And if you are far away from the good when you die you have a long way to go in the afterlife to get to the good again.

Who's to say there is an afterlife.
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by duszek »

Look into your heart and your heart will tell you what is good.
And the highest good is God.

Heart´s language has got a more scientific explanation: empathy or mirror neurons.

Do not harm your brother or sister, like Jesus said.
chaz wyman
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Re: What is Consciousness?

Post by chaz wyman »

duszek wrote:Look into your heart and your heart will tell you what is good.
And the highest good is God.

Heart´s language has got a more scientific explanation: empathy or mirror neurons.

Do not harm your brother or sister, like Jesus said.
Not very convincing.
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