Bending light by electro-magnetism!

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Aetixintro
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Re: Bending light by electro-magnetism!

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My qualification is this:
I have been reading Lee Smolin's "The Trouble With Physics" (by Penguin Group, 2006) and Roger Penrose's "The Road to Reality" (by Vintage Books, 2004). I have also studied physics all the way through upper high school, 3 years, for the Norwegian equivalent of GCSE Science and I've looked carefully into Bayesian problems in philosophy (relating to the Raven's Paradox by Carl Hempel).

Cheers! :)

[Edit:] I withdraw the accusation of NASA, although I claim to have seen the wrongful statement on one of their webpages. Here is a better reference: http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_gp_elm.html. It says:
Magnetic Fields and Light
I recently read that the magnetic fields found in pulsars are strong enough to change the vacuum index of refraction. Does this mean that it is possible to use magnetic fields to bend light? I thought that the vacuum index of refraction couldn't be changed. How does this mechanism work?

Yes, the vacuum index of refraction can change. This is a consequence of quantum field theory, where virtual electron-positron pairs result from vacuum fluctuations. These e-p pairs cause a virtual polarization of the vacuum, which can then change the index of refraction.

Recent work also shows that a strong magnetic field can affect the vacuum polarization through its effect on the e-p pairs. This then changes the vacuum index of refraction. This of course then implies that light rays can be bent by the influence of the magnetic field.

I do not know of any experimental verification of this effect.

Dr. Randy Jokipii
(November 2003)
I must say, though, that the web is marred by numerous assertions like these (thus impelling me to do some public education): http://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=2009.
It says:
How far can a magnetic field bend light? Could it be bent enough so that it goes around a three dimensional object and comes out (after going 180 degrees, I guess) the other side, being bent by the magnet, therefore making it seem as though the object had the light bass through it completely, and it does not appear to the human eye? Here is the best example I can give: -->=light, O=Object, *=mag. field, / or \=light bent. ___ |***| If this can be done, please tell --->/*O*\---> me how, and what would be needed to perform such a thing. Thank you. (PS - This would need to be done in a round sense, as in all around the 3-d object, not in just one line, so please keep that in consideration. Also, if you know any other way to get the desired effect please inform me.)
- Jon (age 15)
The King’s Academy, Marion, IN, U.S.A.
A:
Hi Jon --

Nice try. Unfortunatley, the path light takes is not affected by the presence of a magnetic field. Light itself is composed of an oscillating electric and magnetic field, and one very important property of electric and magnetic fields is what we call "linearity." That is, if you have two sources of electric and/or magnetic fields, you can predict what the combined field is just by adding the two source fields together. The two fields don't change each other at all. So if you add the field of a light ray to any other field we can imagine, the light ray will continue as before and the extra field will just stay the same, adding to it in places where the extra field is strong, but having no effect beyond the reach of the extra field. So there is no way that a magnetic field can bend light.
The underlining is on me. So this is the reason for making this topic. Not that I intend to ridicule people, but rather to set the standard straight!
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John
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Re: Bending light by electro-magnetism!

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What are you tying to achieve by posting evidence against your original assertion?
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Aetixintro
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Re: Bending light by electro-magnetism!

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You should read the text!
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Re: Bending light by electro-magnetism!

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Quantum effects have already been mentioned on the thread but you said you'd seen the bending of light with magnetism in a school experiment and you didn't.

However, that aside, where's your evidence to support your assertion that gravity has north and south poles?
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Re: Bending light by electro-magnetism!

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John wrote:Quantum effects have already been mentioned on the thread but you said you'd seen the bending of light with magnetism in a school experiment and you didn't.
What do you know about what I've seen in school experiments? You don't know jack* about that! Cut the crap!
John wrote:However, that aside, where's your evidence to support your assertion that gravity has north and south poles?
There are so many references on that! Why don't you do some serious search on Google or try Wikipedia, please? Have you heard about the magnetic compass? It appears not! If you don't get serious, I stop answering you!

Little John wants some slapping from his Headmaster? Grow up!!!
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Re: Bending light by electro-magnetism!

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You're hard work you know.
Aetixintro wrote:
John wrote:Quantum effects have already been mentioned on the thread but you said you'd seen the bending of light with magnetism in a school experiment and you didn't.
What do you know about what I've seen in school experiments? You don't know jack* about that! Cut the crap!
I know you didn't see it in school because: there is no experiment that can demonstrate it; you've been unable to say what the experiment was; you have actually provided evidence that it can't be demonstrated experimentally.
Aetixintro wrote:
John wrote:However, that aside, where's your evidence to support your assertion that gravity has north and south poles?
There are so many references on that! Why don't you do some serious search on Google or try Wikipedia, please? Have you heard about the magnetic compass? It appears not! If you don't get serious, I stop answering you!

Little John wants some slapping from his Headmaster? Grow up!!!
I usually try to avoid swearing when I post here but you're making it difficult.

I'll be clear. I know that magnetic fields exhibit a north and south pole. I'm not disputing that. I'm saying that gravity does not. Are you clear on that? Do you now understand what I'm actually saying?
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Re: Bending light by electro-magnetism!

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John wrote:I know you didn't see it in school because: there is no experiment that can demonstrate it; you've been unable to say what the experiment was; you have actually provided evidence that it can't be demonstrated experimentally.
I know that magnetic fields exhibit a north and south pole. I'm not disputing that. I'm saying that gravity does not. Are you clear on that? Do you now understand what I'm actually saying?
1. The experiment to demonstrate it is simply very strong electromagnets in a dark room with a laser beam passing past them, only 2 in pair, north-south and north south, or several pairs, creating a wider field to affect the laser beam and thus to create a greater angle from the original straight line. You can use red laser if you want to. You also need access to some heavier electrical power. I'm not sure how much you need, but something considerable (I've started the calculations, barely).

2.
Have you heard about the magnetic compass? It appears not!
If you're trying to make a point that gravity fields not necessarily has any definite north and south pole, fx. the Sun, that's fine with me. But you seem to contest the fact that Earth has a gravity field with a fairly definite magnetic north and south pole and I find this marvelous from a person living in the 21st century CE. You can simply look up the magnetic gravity field of Earth yourself and check!

I'll let others answer possibly for your next replies. You seem to be doing hair-splitting and I have no time for pettiness. Sorry.

Cheers! :)
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Re: Bending light by electro-magnetism!

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Aetixintro wrote:
John wrote:I know you didn't see it in school because: there is no experiment that can demonstrate it; you've been unable to say what the experiment was; you have actually provided evidence that it can't be demonstrated experimentally.
I know that magnetic fields exhibit a north and south pole. I'm not disputing that. I'm saying that gravity does not. Are you clear on that? Do you now understand what I'm actually saying?
1. The experiment to demonstrate it is simply very strong electromagnets in a dark room with a laser beam passing past them, only 2 in pair, north-south and north south, or several pairs, creating a wider field to affect the laser beam and thus to create a greater angle from the original straight line. You can use red laser if you want to. You also need access to some heavier electrical power. I'm not sure how much you need, but something considerable (I've started the calculations, barely).
I don't believe you've seen that demonstrated in school but if you say you have I'll leave it there and someone else can challenge you on it if they care to.
Aetixintro wrote: 2.
Have you heard about the magnetic compass? It appears not!
If you're trying to make a point that gravity fields not necessarily has any definite north and south pole, fx. the Sun, that's fine with me. But you seem to contest the fact that Earth has a gravity field with a fairly definite magnetic north and south pole and I find this marvelous from a person living in the 21st century CE. You can simply look up the magnetic gravity field of Earth yourself and check!

I'll let others answer possibly for your next replies. You seem to be doing hair-splitting and I have no time for pettiness. Sorry.
I'm far from splitting hairs. You don't seem to know that magnetism and gravity aren't the same thing. If you do realise that then your not expressing it correctly because when you say things like "Earth has a gravity field with a fairly definite magnetic north and south pole" you are saying something that is very clearly wrong.

If you still think I'm wrong show me your reference for Earth's "magnetic gravity" field. Not it's magnetic field and not it's gravity because they're different things.
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Re: Bending light by electro-magnetism!

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John wrote:If you still think I'm wrong show me your reference for Earth's "magnetic gravity" field. Not it's magnetic field and not it's gravity because they're different things.
2 urls:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_magnetic_field
You're one sloppy a**, mr. Clever! So that's it for me! Find somebody else!
Last edited by Aetixintro on Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bending light by electro-magnetism!

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Aetixintro wrote:
John wrote:If you still think I'm wrong show me your reference for Earth's "magnetic gravity" field. Not it's magnetic field and not it's gravity because they're different things.
2 urls:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_magnetic_field
You're one sloppy a**, mr. Clever! So that's it for me! Find somebody else!
None of those references are what you think they are. You're reading things but not understanding them.

I specifically asked for a reference that wasn't just about Earth's magnetic field and what did you give me? A reference that was just about Earth's magnetic field. Do you not actually understand what I'm writing? I know that English isn't your first language but it's as though you don't even understand basic things.
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