God doesn't play dice: cause and effect

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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bytesplicer
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Re: God doesn't play dice: cause and effect

Post by bytesplicer » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:11 am

socratus wrote:Evolution / Consciousness and Quantum of Light.
Can evolution be possible by chance?
No, because “ The second law of thermodynamics “ says the Universe
as whole goes to cold equilibrium ( T=0K) , to regress, to death.
So, by chance evolution is impossible.
Thermodynamics does suggest that, but this doesn't imply that evolution is impossible by chance. The tendency toward 0K takes a long long time, and the energy gets to go through a whole lotta different arrangements as it spreads itself out, a mix of big and small, with localised stability or increases in temperature. Fertile ground for complexity including life and evolution. Of course, evolution may or may not be possible by chance, we just don't know, but the eventuality of heat death (in itself an unverified hypothesis) doesn't seem to say anything one way or the other on evolution or its origin.

Ultimately, I guess this question could only really be answered when or if we learn what set energy on this journey in the first place. We're not sure if the universe is ultimately deterministic or not (i.e. whether chance itself is something that exists). We're collectively not sure if the universe was created by a 'guiding mind' or not, and if so, what the story is behind that mind.

Again, I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong, but the logic doesn't follow, particularly in the face of the enormous number of unknowns involved. Energy may have the long-term ability to split into smaller and smaller quanta without end, quanta which may maintain complex relations with each other. Life may even evolve at this scale, what appears to us to be 1 degree above absolute zero is still, mathematically speaking anyway, a potentially infinite number of further decays and divisions.
socratus wrote: Evolution means progress.
But if evolution is progress
it must have consciousness to make this progress possible.
If it so, we have an astonishing situation.
In 1900 , Max Planck , trying to save the Universe from ice age discovered
Quantum of Light. This Quantum of Light saves the Universe from
extinction, gives life and it means takes part in the Cosmic evolution.
The word progress doesn't really apply to evolution. 'Change' is probably more appropriate. It could be understand as progress in relation to how much something has adapted to its environment, but the long-term (and to a lesser extent, short term) variability of the environment essentially precludes this.
socratus wrote: Question:
Does Quantum of Light have consciousness?
Beats me, I don't even know if I have it.
socratus wrote: #
All these fifty years of conscious brooding have brought me
no nearer to the answer to the question ' What are light quanta?'
Nowadays every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks he knows it,
but he is mistaken
/ Albert Einstein /
#
Didn't know Einstein said this, but it's so true and quite depressing, not only because it applies to light quanta, but essentially all the particles and forces physics has uncovered. All our best science can only say how these things relate to each other (i.e. a description in terms of maths, energy or information), not what any of it actually is.
socratus wrote: "There is in particular one problem whose exhaustive
solution could provide considerable elucidation.
What becomes of the energy of a photon after complete emission?"
/ Max Planck. Nobel Lecture, June 2, 1920 /

This question still waits for its answer.
=======================.
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik. Socratus.
=============================.
Had my own thoughts on this which I think are mostly wrong, don't quite know enough of the juicier physics.

The winning answer here (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 505AAfUWrV) is quite interesting, particularly the final paragraph, but not sure how much of it is factual, can't trust anything on the internet these days!

Xxicrimsonixx
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Re: God doesn't play dice: cause and effect

Post by Xxicrimsonixx » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:53 am

I think that there can be multiple causes to a single effect. Testosterone, stress, disappointment, recent breakups, and anything else you could possibly think of could be a possible cause of rage and anger, they are all possible causes, therefore it is a possibility that all of those things caused the rage and anger. One thing doesn't cause 2 things, 2 things cause 1 thing. You needed 4 things to cause 2 things, and 2 things to cause 1 thing. Both the 4 things are 2 things must have happened for the rage to occur. it would seem like 6 things are required for every effect, but you also have to remember that those 4 things each had 2 things cause each thing, so now you would have 8+4+2... 14 things required. You could literally do this forever, thus the past causes the future, and everything up until that point would be relevant to figuring out which thing causes the next.

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Cerveny
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Re: God doesn't play dice: cause and effect

Post by Cerveny » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:25 pm

socratus wrote:
1.
We have dualistic particle as a ‘ math point’.
2.
We have two kinds of space:
a) Minkowski ( -4D) and a its shadow -
b) separate independent space and independent time (3D+t)
3.
The dualistic particle/wave point can move from one point
to other, or (maybe) from one space (-4D) to another (3D+t).
2. Consider a common growing 4D space - the point "now" is its 3D surface
3. Consider next please, the particles are (as space's structure defects) replicated (during their movement) into new and new Planck time layers, into new Universe sediments...
The wave effects of particle movement are caused by its surrounding that is undulated. Such undulation is caused by particle/surrounding interaction (similar to boat / water interaction).... Such surrounding - the physical space is the "known" aether :)
I am sorry to remind: Theories of relativity / Minkowski metrics seem to be blind branch of physics :(

Zdenek

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Cerveny
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God builds dice :)

Post by Cerveny » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:31 pm

socratus wrote:Cause & Effect: Determinism & Probability.
1.
Classical physics.
Between cause & effect the determining principle acts.
Is this principle correct?
The classical experiments say: it is correct.
2
Quantum physics.
Between cause & effect only probabilistic or
statistical principle acts.
Is this principle correct?
The quantum experiments say: it is correct.
3.
Why are they, both, correct?
===========.
Socratus.
Because "we" (point "now") live on the border between ordered phase (the history) and not yet ordered, uncaused phase (the future). Every quantum interaction ("measurement") fixes, glues some "brick" to the last time sediment of Universe. The order of particular „bricks" is not important to the certain rate. Universe does not expand itselves, Universe is built.... Every rule is fulfilled, every brick wall is smoothened as a template for new Universe sediment after certain time…
Last edited by Cerveny on Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

spike
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Re: God doesn't play dice: cause and effect

Post by spike » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:08 pm

Good post spartacus .

While reading it I was thinking of another of your posts, The Start Of The Anarchic Revolution.

I am thinking, if God does not play dice with the universe why would he encourager anarchy?

There is, in some respects, anarchy within quantum physics but it's manageable.

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Cerveny
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Re: God doesn't play dice: cause and effect

Post by Cerveny » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:44 am

To be clear enough: God does not play dice, God builds dice :)

lancek4
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Re: God doesn't play dice: cause and effect

Post by lancek4 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:36 am

What are we leaving out in this consideration? Nod to someone's post earlier: if I am a particle then I only act; if I am a probability, then there is probably choice. But if I act without choice then its probably difficult to say I'm human. And if I choose without acting ?? Sounds like the whole thing misses something. ?

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socratus
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Re: God doesn't play dice: cause and effect

Post by socratus » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:55 am

lancek4 wrote:What are we leaving out in this consideration?
Nod to someone's post earlier: if I am a particle then I only act;
if I am a probability, then there is probably choice.
But if I act without choice then its probably difficult to say I'm human.
And if I choose without acting ?? Sounds like the whole thing misses something.
?
Buddhist – Zen kaon :
"Two hands clap and there is a sound; what is the sound of one hand?"
============

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Arising_uk
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Re: God doesn't play dice: cause and effect

Post by Arising_uk » Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:40 pm

A slap. Or you're waving.

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socratus
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Re: God doesn't play dice: cause and effect

Post by socratus » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:25 pm

bytesplicer wrote: Had my own thoughts on this which I think are mostly wrong,
don't quite know enough of the juicier physics.

The winning answer here
(http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 505AAfUWrV)
is quite interesting, particularly the final paragraph, but not sure how much
of it is factual, can't trust anything on the internet these days!
Max Planck
Nobel Lecture, June 2, 1920

"There is in particular one problem whose exhaustive
solution could provide considerable elucidation.
What becomes of the energy of a photon after complete emission?"
===============. .
This question still waits for its answer.
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