Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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socratus
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Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.

Post by socratus » Tue May 04, 2010 5:40 pm

Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.
#
The mathematical map brings us to the vacuum.
The physical map brings us to the vacuum.
These two maps are both as one map is confirmed,
the vacuum exists, but the underlying essence is not
revealed for us.
We see the map, we can understand separate marks,
symbols, formulas, equations but the whole picture,
the whole project of Universe is not clear for us.
Why?
Because we see half of map only, the other half
of map - the territory of vacuum is hidden for us.
We see the border between material world and
vacuum, we see particles interact with vacuum and
then comes darkness.
Therefore many people say the map is paradoxical.
How can we understand not only the map of the
material world, but the map of vacuum too, if it
is impossible to be there (T=0K) ? (!)
=========.
Soctatus.
==========================.

mrblue
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Re: Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.

Post by mrblue » Sat May 08, 2010 2:04 am

I enjoyed your quasi-Derridean post. To offer some helpful suggestions (if that can be done in this instance), I think you may want to look to string theory and how the problem of the vacuum energy is resolved.

Note: This is my own idea, but if the problem arises from virtual particles within the vacuum creating the near infinite energy, it may just be a shortcoming of our model.

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Re: Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.

Post by socratus » Sat May 08, 2010 5:02 am

mrblue wrote: how the problem of the vacuum energy is resolved.
Note:
This is my own idea,
but if the problem arises from virtual particles
within the vacuum creating the near infinite energy,
it may just be a shortcoming of our model.
How can the problem of the vacuum energy be resolved ?
1
After big bang the T=2,7K is going down and
in the future will reach T=0K.
2
The cosmological constance (critical density) in the
Universe is near zero.
3
In the physical labaratory physicists have reached
T=0,001K or maybe T=0,0001K.
Why cannot the Universe ( as whole) have this parameter ?
4
My question:
Which kind of particles can exist in T=0K or in T=0,001K
or near T=0K condition?
===========================.
a)
T=0K is not ‘nothing’ space, but it is a Negative space
(-273,15 ) which is filled with ‘virtual negative particles’.
Mathematical they describe not as zero (0), but with
imaginary numbers: i^2=-1.
It means mathematically they can be in two conditions:
positive and negative .
b)
Sommerfeld had possibility to write electron as: e^2=ah*c;
it means, electron can be in two conditions: positive e= +ah*c
and negative e= -ah*c.
c)
Dirac wrote two (2) formulas of electron’s energy;
it means, the electron’s energy can be in two
conditions: positive +E=Mc^2 and negative -E=Mc^2.
d)
Can theory of electron describe the problem of the vacuum energy?
===============================.
Socratus.

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Re: Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.

Post by mrblue » Sat May 08, 2010 5:51 am

I honestly have no idea. I'm a mere amateur when it comes to quantum physics. By the way, are you an academic?

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Re: Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.

Post by socratus » Sat May 08, 2010 8:15 am

mrblue wrote:I honestly have no idea.
I'm a mere amateur when it comes to quantum physics.
By the way, are you an academic?
I am, as you, an amateur too.
Socratus.
=================

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Re: Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.

Post by socratus » Wed May 12, 2010 12:06 pm

Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory. ( 2)
#
Of course it is correct: the map is not territory.
But Napoleon was Napoleon because he knew
how to use the maps.
#
Magellan was sure, as the south of Africa ended with the
Cape of Good Hope, so the south of America also had to
end on some cape and sailing around it he would come
to another sea, to another countries.
So, having one part of the map ( half of it ) and imaging
the other half of it, Magellan made a trip around the
world and described the map of the Earth as a whole.
Later the other researchers precised the details.
#
On my opinion the Magellan’s situation we have now
in the quantum physics. . We have a map: one part
of it is material world , other part of it is vacuum.
And we know very much about electron.
For example, we know how electron works in the atom,
in our material world. But when electron sails into Vacuum –
it disappears there. How can electron come back from there?
How will the electron regenerate from the vacuum?
Nobody knows.
Isn’t clear that at first we must understand the Vacuum
(the another part of the map) and the electron in order
to describe the map of the Universe as a whole?
And later the other researchers will precise the details.
=====================.
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik Socratus
==================.

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Re: Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.

Post by Cerveny » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:45 pm

socratus wrote:
mrblue wrote: 4
My question:
Which kind of particles can exist in T=0K or in T=0,001K
or near T=0K condition?

Can theory of electron describe the problem of the vacuum energy?
===============================.
Socratus.
We can imagine vacuum as perfect transparent crystal. Elementary particles are defects in it.
When temperature becomes 0K all particles will freeze (neutrons, muons,.. become stable)

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Re: Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.

Post by socratus » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:12 am

Cerveny wrote:
socratus wrote:
mrblue wrote: 4
My question:
Which kind of particles can exist in T=0K or in T=0,001K
or near T=0K condition?

Can theory of electron describe the problem of the vacuum energy?
===============================.
Socratus.
We can imagine vacuum as perfect transparent crystal.
Elementary particles are defects in it.
When temperature becomes 0K all particles will freeze
(neutrons, muons,.. become stable)
How can the planets move in your ‘perfect transparent crystal.’ ?
S

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Re: Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.

Post by Cerveny » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:06 pm

socratus wrote: How can the planets move in your ‘perfect transparent crystal.’ ?
S
It is necessary to consider 4-D crystal (the history of Universe) in fact. Such crystal grows from a less ordered (odd causal) phase, from the “future”. The point "now" (the being, the quantum "world", the last Planck time layer) is just a condensing 3-D surface of Universe's history. Elementary particles (the mass) are replicated into every new crystal layer (into every new time’s sediment). The frozen elastic stresses, torsions (physical "fields") in the regular (history's) structure cause shifts of positions of structure defects (of elementary particles). The quantum uncertainty follows from variant possibilities of way of history growing… The origin of the Universe was thus a calm beginning of creating first grain of ordered, causal Universe's phase ... Elementary particles are qualitative changes and “fields” are quantitative changes in space’s structure… Every quantum “measurement”, better “interaction” glues new element to a time sediment of history…
Last edited by Cerveny on Sun May 24, 2015 10:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

bytesplicer
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Re: Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.

Post by bytesplicer » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:42 pm

The relationship between the something and the nothing epitomises for me our struggle to understand our world, such a fascinating and mind bending concept, it makes amateurs of us all.

I love Cerveny's description, of particles being 'frozen' in a final position at 0K, almost as if this crystal is the 'final output' of a running program. Bit hard to consolidate for me, I have the thought that 0K denotes a lack of heat, but not a lack of energy (might be wrong there, not sure), which would make me wonder whether the universe could ever actually settle down. There's also the issue of whether 0K is attainable, either by us or by the universe. I tend to think of it as an approachable limit, that can't be reached, particular when you consider temperature as an average across the whole universe. In this regard, what Socratus says about using imaginary numbers is also interesting, perhaps an average of 0K could be achieved through the use of imaginary numbers in our description of heat. My own personal thought is that temperature is a relative scale that appears to us as it does simply because of our location in space and time, this coincides with Socratus' question of what particles would exist at 0K (or near). As the average temperature approached 0K we'd either see that last photons of heat disappearing (decaying into some as yet unknown, or impossible, smaller particle), or their average distance from each other increasing. It's not unplausable at this stage, with these smaller particles, or greater distances, that you could describe something similar to our scale of temperature with the same degree of refinement, absolute zero is absolute zero, but now we're measuring the distance between 0 and 1K, rather than between 0 and whatever the highest temperature we see now. Like the real number line, there may be infinite possible subdivisions, the temperature scale of our own universe fitting into the 0-1K range of some higher universe. Another way to put it, measuring the distance between some starting point (0) and the maximum distance (1) can be refined in either direction. You could take half that distance and rename it 1, with real numbers you've still got infinite subdivision. You could double the distance and call it 1, and you still have infinite subdivision. This is the mathematical 'reality', the question remains whether our own reality, including energy/particles at the twilight of time, follow this in their ability to subdivide. I like the thought of this, it would suggest the universe and the complexity within, including life, may be eternal. This argument could also be carried backwards before the big bang, our singularity and subsequent universe being the decay of a larger particle, going back forever. At its simplest, our universe could conceptually be the number 1 (the total energy), dividing itself into smaller and smaller fractions, forever. Even if this total energy is infinite, division is still possible, into smaller orders of infinity. Whatever scale you occupy in this division, you'd observe fractions of the whole subdividing, and sometimes combining, constrained by each other and the fact that they must always total 1.

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To imaginary numbers ...

Post by Cerveny » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:54 pm

We can conceive the information as an “imaginary” energy. Imagine a cards' pack. After we order cards in this pack, no real energy has been changed. But something has been changed. When computers do something they create imaginary energy, they have an imaginary power. People dispose by and appreciate a “complex energy” the mix of real energy and information. The measure of "complex energy" is money. Information entered into space with the life. A nice ordered DNA brought new value into universe :). I personally have problem with a “will to the life”. It is omnipresent and permanent. Thus I believe the imaginary energy flow here from the outside, from the “future”…
Last edited by Cerveny on Sun May 24, 2015 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.

Post by bytesplicer » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:19 pm

Some interesting ideas there Cerveny, particularly with regards to money as 'complex energy', I've often wondered about this and its consequences, with money as a form of virtual energy, but with the added ability that you can create more of it without the same limits you have with 'real' energy. I think looking at it from that viewpoint can tell us a lot about why money drives us crazy!

One point on which I disagree (though I may have confused your meaning) is regarding imaginary energy and computing. The energy involved in computer processes is very real (well, as real as energy gets) but a certain confusion seems to arise between hardware and software, and the assumption that software has 'no real existence'. Looking down at the lowest levels, software by its very nature introduces a physical change into the hardware onto which it is installed. While software is running, it actually 'exists' as real particles moving through the circuitry. At no point is the software ever truly 'imaginary', except perhaps, in our minds.

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Re: To imaginary numbers ...

Post by Cerveny » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:19 pm

Cerveny wrote:We can conceive the information as an “imaginary” energy. Imagine a cards' pack. After we order cards in this pack no real energy has been changed. But something has changed. When computers do something they create imaginary energy, they have an imaginary power. People dispose by and appreciate a “complex energy” the mix of real energy and information. The measure of "complex energy" is money. Information entered into space with the life. A nice ordered DNA brought new value into universe :). I personally have problem with a “will to the life”. It is omnipresent and permanent. Thus I believe the imaginary energy flow here from the outside, from the “future”…
Growing inequality of property thus can be explained by the mutual attraction of money / property / imaginary energy / imaginary matter :)
By the way, do you not occasionally being attracted by some "information" in the form of a perfect, valuable DNA?

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Re: Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.

Post by Cerveny » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:09 pm

bytesplicer wrote:Some interesting ideas there Cerveny, particularly with regards to money as 'complex energy', I've often wondered about this and its consequences, with money as a form of virtual energy, but with the added ability that you can create more of it without the same limits you have with 'real' energy. I think looking at it from that viewpoint can tell us a lot about why money drives us crazy!

One point on which I disagree (though I may have confused your meaning) is regarding imaginary energy and computing. The energy involved in computer processes is very real (well, as real as energy gets) but a certain confusion seems to arise between hardware and software, and the assumption that software has 'no real existence'. Looking down at the lowest levels, software by its very nature introduces a physical change into the hardware onto which it is installed. While software is running, it actually 'exists' as real particles moving through the circuitry. At no point is the software ever truly 'imaginary', except perhaps, in our minds.
Software produces "imaginary" power and creates an "imaginary" potential energy :)

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Re: Terra incognita, Sacred ground, Mysterious territory.

Post by Cerveny » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:09 pm

Cerveny wrote:
socratus wrote: How can the planets move in your ‘perfect transparent crystal.’ ?
S
It is necessary to consider 4-D crystal (the history of Universe) in fact. Such crystal grows from less ordered (odd causal) phase, from the “future”. The point "now" (the being, the quantum "world") is just condensing 3-D surface of Universe's history. Elementary particles (the mass) are replicated into every new crystal layer (into every new time’s sediment). The frozen elastic stresses, torsions (physical "fields") in the regular (history's) structure cause shifts of positions of structure defects (of elementary particles). The quantum uncertainty follows from variant possibilities of way of history growing… The origin of the Universe was thus a calm beginning of creating first grain of ordered, causal Universe's phase ... Elementary particles are qualitative changes and “fields” are quantitative changes in space’s structure… Every quantum “measurement”, better “interaction” glues new element to a time sediment of history…
We can also think about the relation of "the past / the presence (last Planck's layer of time, the quantum world) / the future" as about a "solid / superfluid / normal phase of aether". We need a new point of view at physics :(

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