Can You explain the procedure to establish the existence of God based on scientific logic?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
dattaswami
Posts: 652
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:42 am

Can You explain the procedure to establish the existence of God based on scientific logic?

Post by dattaswami »

Can You explain the procedure to establish the existence of God based on scientific logic?

[Ms. Laxmi Thrylokya asked: Pādanamaskāram Swami, Can You explain the procedure of establishment of existence of unimaginable God based on scientific logic in a more detailed way?]

Swami Replied:- It is fourfold logic and since the four logics are interrelated with each other, it is also a four-dimensional logic.

1. Logic of Infinite Regress: In this universe, every item has another item as its cause. That cause will have still another item as its cause. In this way, the ad-infinitum or infinite regress (Anavasthaa) results by which the chain of causes becomes endless. Somewhere, we have to stop so that the ultimate cause is not having its own cause. But, if we see this chain of items appearing as products of upper causes, it should be endless because all these imaginable products must have their causes as we observe the nature of items of imaginable world. Energy is seen to be generated from matter (cause) and matter seems to be generated from energy because matter is condensed energy.

Awareness seems to be generated from the inert energy transformed in materialized nervous system and this inert energy is also generated from food (matter). In this way, the three fundamental constituents of the creation called inert energy, inert matter and non-inert awareness are seen as products of other causes even though, a circular cycle is involved. You may say that since matter and awareness are products of inert energy, let the energy be the ultimate cause of the creation. Such energy is inert and can’t have planned the design of the universe so systematically as told in the Brahmasuutras (Īkṣateḥ…). Even if you support the inert energy based on the theory of probability (which says that some design must have happened based on certain probability), the other three types of logics mentioned below force us to accept the discovery of unimaginable item as the ultimate cause of the creation.

Hence, there is a force that demands the ultimate cause of all these imaginable items must be an unimaginable item, which can be called by a name ‘ParaBrahman’ or unimaginable God.

2. Logic of Space: Einstein feels that space is nothing since there is no absolute space but, only a geometrical space. It means space is the distance between two objects A and B. When A and B disappear the space between A and B also disappears. Beyond A there may be a new object X and beyond B there may be a new object Y. Even though, the space between A and B disappears along with A and B, it is not experienced by us because of the existence of space between X and Y. If we take this sense, space is not included in the creation because nothing can be created. In this sense, space is only conventional or myth. In such case, there is no meaning in searching for the cause of the space.

Neglecting space, we have to search for the cause of inert energy and such cause alone can be the ultimate cause of this universe. Regarding matter and awareness, we need not worry because both these are different forms of the same inert energy. Matter is said to be condensed energy and awareness is a special work form of inert energy transformed in the functioning brain-nervous system. In this line, we have to simply search for the cause of inert energy (cosmic energy), which will be the ultimate cause of creation.

Taking another angle of the above topic, we like to consider space as a subtle form of inert energy. Scientists say that from vacuum galaxies are generated. They also say that space bends along the boundary of an object and in such case, space must be something since nothing can bend along the boundary. The Veda also says that God generated space in the beginning of the creation (Ātmana Ākāśaḥ…). It is also said in the Veda that God created energy (Tat tejo'sṛjata…) in the beginning because the first item of the creation must have been created by God only since the second item onwards it is told to be created from the first item.

Hence, both space and energy happen to be the first item only. Therefore, it is forced to accept that space is energy by which the contradiction will disappear. However, since space is also energy, in this line also we have to search for the ultimate cause of the creation that generated the energy only as said in the above paragraph. The entire creation can be considered as subtle energy or space from which matter and awareness were created in course of time resulting in various living and non-living items.

Here, scientists take the creation as four-dimensional space-time model. If we analyse sharply, time is also a coordinate of space only that pervades all the three spatial coordinates. Time depends on the revolution of earth and relative movement of sun and moon. Time is defined as the distance between two incidents taking place in the space. Time is also expressed in terms of spatial coordinates as we see people saying that the time in the morning is about two hands distance from the horizon, which means that the sun moved up so much distance. We also express the distance in the units of time by saying a billion light years distance. Hence, time is not mentioned as an independent item at all in the process of creation described by the Veda. Hence, when we say that the ultimate cause generated space, it means it generated space-time model. We can briefly call this space-time model as space itself in brief.

Now, when the ultimate cause generated space, the ultimate cause must not have space in it. If space existed in the ultimate cause before the generation of space, it becomes absurd since space exists in the ultimate cause even before its generation. In such case, you cannot say that space is generated by the ultimate cause. This means that the ultimate cause is not having space in it, which means that the ultimate cause has no spatial dimensions or the ultimate cause has no volume. Any item with zero volume can never be imagined by any human being even if it breaks its head for millions of births. Hence, the ultimate cause of the creation is unimaginable.

3. Logic of Boundary of the Universe: As per the above explanation, the entire creation can be viewed as basically the inert cosmic energy only. This energy or creation is imaginable domain, which is this imaginable universe. The boundary of the universe is unimaginable, which means that the material of the boundary is imaginable, but, the distance at which this boundary exists is unimaginable. This means as we or our imagination proceeds along the diameter of the universe to touch its end point, the end point goes on running away from us or our imagination. The universe may have a definite boundary, but, it is not touched by us. We say that the boundary is definite because the boundary of the creation is imaginable to God and is not unimaginable to God. When God told that the boundary of His creation is infinite (Nānto'sti mama divyāanāṃ vibhūtīnām…- Gītā), it means that His creation is infinite for the human beings only and not for Himself.

This definite boundary is running away as we try to touch it. This can be supported by the theory of expansion of universe as suggested by scientists. The boundary of the creation is not really infinite, but, it is running away from us (our imagination) since we are not supposed to touch it. What is the reason for this, especially when the boundary of creation is not really at infinite distance? The reason is that as we proceed to touch the boundary of the imaginable universe, the unimaginable domain or the ultimate cause of the creation or God is going more and more away from us because the unimaginable domain can never be touched by the imaginable human beings. Hence, the reason for the expansion of universe is not really the real phenomenon of expansion of creation, but, the actual reason is that the unimaginable domain, which is adjacent to the boundary of imaginable domain is going away since it is untouchable to the brains of imaginable human beings. It is only a relative concept.

 However, this analysis proves that the boundary of imaginable creation, which is just adjacent to the unimaginable domain can’t be touched because the unimaginable domain is really the untouchable item for the imagination of imaginable human beings. This can be understood by a simile: let us suppose that the boundary of the ocean (imaginable domain) is just adjacent to the boundary of land (unimaginable domain). In such case, since you can’t touch the land (unimaginable), you can never reach the boundary of water of the ocean (even though it is imaginable). This means essentially that the unimaginable land is actually going back so that you shall not touch it and consequently the imaginable water of ocean is expanding though this water is imaginable and has a finite boundary that is known by omniscient God.

In this way, the expansion of universe is only a relative phenomenon while the incapability of touching the unimaginable God is the final absolute phenomenon. All this again proves that the unimaginable God or the ultimate cause of the creation is surrounding all the creation (Sarvamāvṛtya tiṣṭhati…- Gītā). By this, we can imagine the unimaginable God as the ultimate cause like fire from whom the imaginable creation was generated like smoke. If you follow the track of the smoke, you will reach its cause or fire. But, since the fire (cause) is unimaginable, you can never reach the end point of the track of the smoke (boundary of imaginable universe). All this again proves finally that the ultimate cause of this creation is unimaginable God called ParaBrahman.

4. Logic of miracles: In the creation we find genuine miracles. We also find false miracles called magic which does not mean the genuine miracles are absent. These genuine miracles are perceivable by us, but, the cause or source of these unimaginable events can’t be explained, which means that their source is unimaginable. This again proves that the unimaginable source of miracles exists and such source is again the same ultimate cause of the creation as explained in the above mentioned three types of logics. Moreover, the performer of these unimaginable miracles is the human incarnation of unimaginable God like the recent Satya Sai Baba, Who represents the unimaginable God since incarnation means the unimaginable God present in visible and imaginable medium. This is a direct proof of the direct concept of creation of this world by the unimaginable God that can be easily concluded by seeing creation of energy, matter and awareness by the human incarnation.

Conclusion: On uniting the above said four types of logic, we can easily conclude the existence of unimaginable God or ParaBrahman as the ultimate cause of this creation, Who punishes the sinners through unimaginable ways even if the sinner escape the law of the land by their crooked intelligence. Since the ways of unimaginable God are unimaginable, the sinner cannot contemplate the crooked ways to escape the punishment of the sin and hence, the punishment for the sin is inevitable. The only way to escape the punishments of sins from God is reformation of the soul that includes realization of the sin, repentance for the sin and non-repetition of the sin. Except this one way, there is no other way to escape the punishment of sin that is implemented by the unimaginable God. By intensive worships to God, the sin is only postponed to later time to undergo the punishment with accumulated interest. The devotee thinks that the innocent God is exploited by his/her soaping technology feeling that God cancelled the sin forever. Of course, in extremely special cases of devotion at climax level, God undergoes the punishments of the sins of the devotees, Who never aspire for such suffering of God. Instead of all these exceptional intricate options, how simple it is to undergo the above mentioned reformation!
Skepdick
Posts: 14365
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Can You explain the procedure to establish the existence of God based on scientific logic?

Post by Skepdick »

dattaswami wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:56 am Can You explain the procedure to establish the existence of God based on scientific logic?
The question is incoherent and the follow-up is entirely inconsequential.

The way scientists use the term "exists" is different to the naive usage of that term by teenagers and first year philosophy students; or intellectual dilletantes.

For a phenomenon; or an entity to "exist" it means that the term/idea/concept is doing some non-trivial work in the ontology of your theory.

Does God exist? Well - it depends on your theory. Apply Occam's razor: Does your theory still work if you remove God from it? Yes? Then the concept is not doing any work in the ontology of your theory and you can safely remove it. e.g God does not exist.

Does your theory still work if you remove God from it? No? Then the concept is doing some work in the ontology of your theory and you should keep it.
e.g God exists.

And that's all there is to it.
dattaswami
Posts: 652
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:42 am

Re: Can You explain the procedure to establish the existence of God based on scientific logic?

Post by dattaswami »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:26 am
dattaswami wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:56 am Can You explain the procedure to establish the existence of God based on scientific logic?
The question is incoherent and the follow-up is entirely inconsequential.

The way scientists use the term "exists" is different to the naive usage of that term by teenagers and first year philosophy students; or intellectual dilletantes.

For a phenomenon; or an entity to "exist" it means that the term/idea/concept is doing some non-trivial work in the ontology of your theory.

Does God exist? Well - it depends on your theory. Apply Occam's razor: Does your theory still work if you remove God from it? Yes? Then the concept is not doing any work in the ontology of your theory and you can safely remove it. e.g God does not exist.

Does your theory still work if you remove God from it? No? Then the concept is doing some work in the ontology of your theory and you should keep it.
e.g God exists.

And that's all there is to it.
The logic of atheists is based on perception (Pratyaksha Pramana), which was propagated by the sage Charvaka. Perception means the knowledge derived from the observation with the naked eyes. Infact in the logic (Tarka Sastra) all the means of knowledge are based on perception only. In the inference (Anumana) also, the fire on the hill is inferred by its smoke. But the relationship between the fire and smoke is perceived with the naked eyes only. Similarly other means of knowledge are also based on the perception only. Thus Charvaka forms the basic of the entire logic and without logic there is no knowledge.

The statement that the God is above logic must be proved only by perception. The divine miracles performed by the human form of Lord prove that there is a power above the logic. These miracles are seen by the naked eyes. The atheists must be allowed to prove whether the miracles are simply magic tricks. When they cannot prove, they must accept the existence of super power above the logic. If they do not accept this they are contradicting their own basis, which is the perception. The divine miracles are experienced by the devotees and the experience cannot be contradicted. If the experience is contradicted, the experience of the atheists is also contradicted. Therefore atheists must be open-minded and should not be conservative. If they are conservative they have no right to criticize the religious conservatism.

The theory of Vedas and Bhagavath Gita never contradicts the perception and therefore the logic of atheists becomes the basis of the spiritual knowledge. The Lord comes in human form and this human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Even the miracles performed by demons establish the existence of super power. Therefore to convince the atheists the miracles of the Lord are not necessary. When they are convinced about the existence of the Super power (Maya), the possessor of the Super Power, the Lord, coming in human form must be also accepted because the form is seen by the naked eyes. The salvation is breakage of the bonds in this world. Since the bonds of this world exist based on the perception, the salvation is also existing based on the perception. Since the family members and the money are perceived by the eyes, the bonds with them are also perceived. Thus the salvation (Moksha) must be accepted by the atheists. A single bond with the human form of the Lord is called ‘Saayujya’ or ‘Kaivalya’.

Since the human form is perceived, Sayujya or Kaivalya is also perceived and must be accepted by the atheists. The Bliss is derived by the devotee from the divine knowledge of the human form of the Lord. Therefore the Bliss is also true according to atheists. Thus the goal, the means to please the Lord (Sadhana) and the fruit of Sadhana (Moksha and Kaivalya) are perceived and exist in this world itself.

Veda says ‘Yat Saakshat Aparokshaat’, ‘Pratyagatmana Maikshat’ which mean that the Lord in human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Veda also says ‘Ihachet Avedeet’, which means that everything is true as seen in this world itself. This is called ‘Jeevanmukthi’, which means attaining the salvation while one is alive and not after death. The salvation after the death is not true because that has no basis of perception. Thus if the atheists are little bit patient and leave their aggressive nature of criticism, they are best fitted in the true spiritual knowledge of Vedas. In fact Swami Vidyaranya included the philosophy of Charvaka in his book as one of the logical philosophies (Darsanaas).


The existence of God is established in its own way based on the merit (miracle) of God even through the basic perception.

If you say that God can be accepted for control of sin, there is no such need due to perceived unimaginable miracles.
Skepdick
Posts: 14365
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Can You explain the procedure to establish the existence of God based on scientific logic?

Post by Skepdick »

dattaswami wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:23 pm Perception means the knowledge derived from the observation with the naked eyes.
That's pretty fucking stupid. What about all your other senses?

I know that I am thirsty right now - I didn't use my "naked eyes" to derrive that knowledge.

dattaswami wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:23 pm (blah blah blah)
The statement that the God is above logic must be proved only by perception.

(blah blah blah)
That's a lot of waffle, dude.

Is perception above logic? What should perception be proved by?

The reason you have no consistent set of principles is because you can't even define "consistency" without faling into circularities.

I am consistently inconsistent. Does that make me consistent; or inconsistent?

Metaphysics is lame.
alan1000
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:03 am

Re: Can You explain the procedure to establish the existence of God based on scientific logic?

Post by alan1000 »

Are the moderators of this forum so utterly bereft of any capacity for critical or analytical judgement? On what conceivable planet does this constitute a question in scientific philosophy? Jesus wept.
alan1000
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:03 am

Re: Can You explain the procedure to establish the existence of God based on scientific logic?

Post by alan1000 »

I'm sorry, but I'm not finished. Moderators, do you think "Unimaginable God" is a recognised scientific concept? Wake up and smell the coffee! What do you think the Religion forum is for, for f***'s sake?
dattaswami
Posts: 652
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:42 am

Re: Can You explain the procedure to establish the existence of God based on scientific logic?

Post by dattaswami »

alan1000 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:30 pm I'm sorry, but I'm not finished. Moderators, do you think "Unimaginable God" is a recognised scientific concept? Wake up and smell the coffee! What do you think the Religion forum is for, for f***'s sake?
God is always unimaginable and unknowable for any human being and under any circumstances because He is beyond the dimensions of space and time. This is very much stressed in the Veda and the Gita. There is no second thought about this point and Shankara also said the same when He said that God could be understood only in deep sleep. In deep sleep (Sushupti) there is no entity that understands (Jnata) because the process of understanding (Jnanam) disappears. When the process of burning disappears, there is no fire. If you say that the process of knowing itself is the knower, then also the knower is absent because there is no process of knowing in deep sleep. The knower can no more be a knower if the knower loses the process or quality of knowing. Then the knower is converted into an inert item in deep sleep.

Infact, this is true according to science also because the knower or process of knowing is converted into inert energy in deep sleep. Shankara means by His statement that God is unknown as indicated by deep sleep, in which a state of total ignorance remains, indicating that one is totally ignorant about God (Sushuptyekasiddhah…). You cannot say that the knower or the process of knowing (knowledge) itself is God, because in that case, God is not eternal but vanishes daily (converted into inert energy) and is born daily (inert energy is converted into the knower or knowledge). This is not acceptable because God is eternal.

To evaluate the unknown answer [in Mathematics], you represent the answer by X and then get the answer for X using the given data. But in the case of God, the answer will always be unknowable and unimaginable. The link between the unknowable God and the knowable items of the world is also unknowable and hence no data related to God can be knowable. In the Mathematical problem, since the answer is knowable, the data related to the knowable answer is also knowable with the help of which the knowable [unknown] answer can be evaluated. But that is not the case with God. Hence, any knowable item of the creation can be made as the representative of God. The only knowable experience about God is that God exists.
dattaswami
Posts: 652
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:42 am

Re: Can You explain the procedure to establish the existence of God based on scientific logic?

Post by dattaswami »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:26 pm
dattaswami wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:23 pm Perception means the knowledge derived from the observation with the naked eyes.
That's pretty fucking stupid. What about all your other senses?

I know that I am thirsty right now - I didn't use my "naked eyes" to derrive that knowledge.

dattaswami wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:23 pm (blah blah blah)
The statement that the God is above logic must be proved only by perception.

(blah blah blah)
That's a lot of waffle, dude.

Is perception above logic? What should perception be proved by?

The reason you have no consistent set of principles is because you can't even define "consistency" without faling into circularities.

I am consistently inconsistent. Does that make me consistent; or inconsistent?

Metaphysics is lame.
The unimaginable God is beyond space. Space has three dimensions called length, breadth, and height. Time also is an associated coordinate of space since, without space, time cannot exist. When we take the state of unimaginable God, He is beyond space and time, due to which He is unimaginable. Since He is beyond time, you should not ask Me about the time in which He existed alone without creation. His state, which is beyond the four-dimensional space-time, exists even now and it will exist even in the future. His state continues forever even after the creation of this world and even though He enters the world in the form of Incarnations. It is a wonder how God remains unchanged in spite of incarnating in multiple forms, and it is possible due to His inherent unimaginable nature. This is described in the Gita as “Avibhaktam vibhakteṣu”

First, God created space, which is subtle inert energy. Space and the subtle energy are one and the same since the Veda says in one place that God created space (Ātmana ākāśaḥ...), and in another place, it also says that God created energy (Tat tejo’sṛjata...). Regarding the creation of the other elements and items of creation, a chain of cause and effect is described. It is told that from space arose air, and from air arose fire and so on. God is said to be the direct cause only for space and energy. Since both space and energy are separately said to be the first creations, which were directly created by God, they must be one and the same.

It means that space, even though it appears to be ‘nothing’ is actually ‘something’. It is subtle energy. The visible gross energy is derived from the invisible subtle energy by the reduction in its frequency. We know that visible light is electromagnetic radiation. Electromagnetic radiation of higher frequencies such as ultraviolet light, x-rays and gamma rays, is invisible to us but it is detected by scientific instruments. The subtle energy has even higher frequencies than x-rays or gamma rays and it is not only invisible to us but it is also undetected by scientific instruments. However, it is not nothing, since it is basically energy.

Just because something is invisible to your eyes or to scientific instruments, it does not mean it is ‘nothing’ or non-existent. It can exist even though it is invisible. Ancient Indian logic speaks about the quantization of space. They described ākāśa paramāṇus, which can roughly be translated as ‘atoms of space’. It clearly indicates that the ancient Indian philosophers knew that space, being one of the five elements, is something. Science also speaks about the bending of space, which suggests that space is something. It is possible that all of creation disappears yet space alone remains. Space has its own independent existence. Space need not disappear along with matter as some scientists think.

God wanted to create this world and He created space or subtle energy as the first item. Without space, creation cannot exist even though space can exist without creation. God wanted to express Himself to the souls, which were to be created in the future. So, He created a divine energetic body containing a divine energetic soul. Both the energetic soul and body together are called as the energetic being. The unimaginable God merged with this first energetic being permanently to become the First Energetic Incarnation called Datta. Datta means ‘given’ or ‘expressed’ for the sake of souls. Datta is known by many names including Hiraṇyagarbha, Nārāyaṇa, Sadāśiva, Īśvara, Yahwah, Allah and Father of heaven.

The first Energetic Incarnation occupies a certain amount of space from the point of view of its body and soul. The soul too is a form of energy and it requires space for its existence. Thus, the first Energetic Incarnation needs some amount of subtle energy for the creation of its body and soul. A part of the subtle energy, which is the first item created by God, is used for this purpose. Even in the final dissolution, this space occupied by the first Energetic Incarnation does not disappear because this First Incarnation is eternal. This holy space is called the ultimate space or parama vyoma. It is called ultimate or parama since it will not disappear even if the entire creation disappears.

Actually, in the final dissolution, the world only goes from its gross state into a subtle or hidden state called avyaktam. A movie is projected on the screen in a movie theater during the show. This is like the gross state of creation. When the show is over, the movie is no longer projected on the screen, but it remains in a subtle form in the film reel. This is like the subtle state of creation during dissolution.

Not only does the first Energetic Incarnation called Hiraṇyagarbha or Brahmā remain during the dissolution, but His abode called Brahma Loka also does not disappear. In other words, space never disappears. It is space which contains Brahma Loka and the rest of creation in a subtle state. It is this ultimate space that is mentioned in the Veda through the words “Parame vyoman...”. Brahma Loka also exists in its gross state after final dissolution and can be called as parama vyoma. The space occupied by the creation in subtle state, after final dissolution, is called as vyoma or space.
Skepdick
Posts: 14365
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Can You explain the procedure to establish the existence of God based on scientific logic?

Post by Skepdick »

dattaswami wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:48 am
Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:26 pm
dattaswami wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:23 pm Perception means the knowledge derived from the observation with the naked eyes.
That's pretty fucking stupid. What about all your other senses?

I know that I am thirsty right now - I didn't use my "naked eyes" to derrive that knowledge.

dattaswami wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:23 pm (blah blah blah)
The statement that the God is above logic must be proved only by perception.

(blah blah blah)
That's a lot of waffle, dude.

Is perception above logic? What should perception be proved by?

The reason you have no consistent set of principles is because you can't even define "consistency" without faling into circularities.

I am consistently inconsistent. Does that make me consistent; or inconsistent?

Metaphysics is lame.
The unimaginable God is beyond space. Space has three dimensions called length, breadth, and height. Time also is an associated coordinate of space since, without space, time cannot exist. When we take the state of unimaginable God, He is beyond space and time, due to which He is unimaginable. Since He is beyond time, you should not ask Me about the time in which He existed alone without creation. His state, which is beyond the four-dimensional space-time, exists even now and it will exist even in the future. His state continues forever even after the creation of this world and even though He enters the world in the form of Incarnations. It is a wonder how God remains unchanged in spite of incarnating in multiple forms, and it is possible due to His inherent unimaginable nature. This is described in the Gita as “Avibhaktam vibhakteṣu”

First, God created space, which is subtle inert energy. Space and the subtle energy are one and the same since the Veda says in one place that God created space (Ātmana ākāśaḥ...), and in another place, it also says that God created energy (Tat tejo’sṛjata...). Regarding the creation of the other elements and items of creation, a chain of cause and effect is described. It is told that from space arose air, and from air arose fire and so on. God is said to be the direct cause only for space and energy. Since both space and energy are separately said to be the first creations, which were directly created by God, they must be one and the same.

It means that space, even though it appears to be ‘nothing’ is actually ‘something’. It is subtle energy. The visible gross energy is derived from the invisible subtle energy by the reduction in its frequency. We know that visible light is electromagnetic radiation. Electromagnetic radiation of higher frequencies such as ultraviolet light, x-rays and gamma rays, is invisible to us but it is detected by scientific instruments. The subtle energy has even higher frequencies than x-rays or gamma rays and it is not only invisible to us but it is also undetected by scientific instruments. However, it is not nothing, since it is basically energy.

Just because something is invisible to your eyes or to scientific instruments, it does not mean it is ‘nothing’ or non-existent. It can exist even though it is invisible. Ancient Indian logic speaks about the quantization of space. They described ākāśa paramāṇus, which can roughly be translated as ‘atoms of space’. It clearly indicates that the ancient Indian philosophers knew that space, being one of the five elements, is something. Science also speaks about the bending of space, which suggests that space is something. It is possible that all of creation disappears yet space alone remains. Space has its own independent existence. Space need not disappear along with matter as some scientists think.

God wanted to create this world and He created space or subtle energy as the first item. Without space, creation cannot exist even though space can exist without creation. God wanted to express Himself to the souls, which were to be created in the future. So, He created a divine energetic body containing a divine energetic soul. Both the energetic soul and body together are called as the energetic being. The unimaginable God merged with this first energetic being permanently to become the First Energetic Incarnation called Datta. Datta means ‘given’ or ‘expressed’ for the sake of souls. Datta is known by many names including Hiraṇyagarbha, Nārāyaṇa, Sadāśiva, Īśvara, Yahwah, Allah and Father of heaven.

The first Energetic Incarnation occupies a certain amount of space from the point of view of its body and soul. The soul too is a form of energy and it requires space for its existence. Thus, the first Energetic Incarnation needs some amount of subtle energy for the creation of its body and soul. A part of the subtle energy, which is the first item created by God, is used for this purpose. Even in the final dissolution, this space occupied by the first Energetic Incarnation does not disappear because this First Incarnation is eternal. This holy space is called the ultimate space or parama vyoma. It is called ultimate or parama since it will not disappear even if the entire creation disappears.

Actually, in the final dissolution, the world only goes from its gross state into a subtle or hidden state called avyaktam. A movie is projected on the screen in a movie theater during the show. This is like the gross state of creation. When the show is over, the movie is no longer projected on the screen, but it remains in a subtle form in the film reel. This is like the subtle state of creation during dissolution.

Not only does the first Energetic Incarnation called Hiraṇyagarbha or Brahmā remain during the dissolution, but His abode called Brahma Loka also does not disappear. In other words, space never disappears. It is space which contains Brahma Loka and the rest of creation in a subtle state. It is this ultimate space that is mentioned in the Veda through the words “Parame vyoman...”. Brahma Loka also exists in its gross state after final dissolution and can be called as parama vyoma. The space occupied by the creation in subtle state, after final dissolution, is called as vyoma or space.
Didn't read that and I am not going to. Just one point though...

dattaswami wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:48 am First, God created space, which is subtle inert energy.
I count from zero, not 1 so....

0 - Humans created the concept of God
1 - God created the concept of space

But we can just get rid of God...

0 - Humans created the concept of space
Post Reply