Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Age
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by Age »

uwot wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:42 am
VVilliam wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:45 amLogically something cannot come from nothing,..
Granted, but we cannot know that the origin of the universe was logical.
ONCE AGAIN, you can NOT LET GO of that BELIEF of YOURS that the Universe BEGAN.

Have you got ABSOLUTELY ANY 'evidence' AT ALL, let alone 'proof', that the Universe BEGAN?

If yes, then will you PLEASE put 'it' forward here?

If no, then WHY NOT?

And, WHY do you persist with that ABSOLUTELY False, Wrong, Incorrect, ABSURD, AND NONSENSICAL BELIEF of YOURS here?
uwot wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:42 am
VVilliam wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:45 amHave you read this story?
I hadn't. It's a good little story. Metaphysics is fun, but what I'm am trying to explain is what we can actually see. I have no idea what happened before the big bang, or what goes on beyond the visible universe. It could be anything; maybe Asimov was right.
If you want to now CLAIM that there was a BEFORE the 'big bang', then you will have to ALSO ACCEPT that the 'big bang' was NOT the beginning of the Universe.

So, WHY do you KEEP CONTRADICTING "yourself"?
uwot
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by uwot »

Skepdick wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:42 amI am merely observing that you don't seem to think of time as a location in the same breath that you are talking about spacetime - a coordinate system.
As I'm sure you are aware, you can draw multiple points on a coordinate system and even lines.
uwot
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by uwot »

Age wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:54 amIf you want to now CLAIM that there was a BEFORE the 'big bang', then you will have to ALSO ACCEPT that the 'big bang' was NOT the beginning of the Universe.

So, WHY do you KEEP CONTRADICTING "yourself"?
Please read what I write Age:
uwot wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:42 am...I have no idea what happened before the big bang...
To be clear, I have no idea if there was anything before the big bang.
Age
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by Age »

uwot wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:20 pm
Age wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:54 amIf you want to now CLAIM that there was a BEFORE the 'big bang', then you will have to ALSO ACCEPT that the 'big bang' was NOT the beginning of the Universe.

So, WHY do you KEEP CONTRADICTING "yourself"?
Please read what I write Age:
I DO, and that is HOW and WHY I keep picking up on YOUR CONTRADICTIONS.
uwot wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:20 pm
uwot wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:42 am...I have no idea what happened before the big bang...
To be clear, I have no idea if there was anything before the big bang.
OBVIOUSLY you do NOT, well NOT YET anyway.

When you DO have A CLUE you will STOP CONTRADICTING "yourself" here.

Also, if there was NOT ANY 'thing' BEFORE the so-called 'big bang', then this would infer that the Universe BEGAN from, literally, NO 'thing', which the ABSURDITY OF speaks for ITSELF.

The reason WHY some 'theories' become so 'popular', and last for a while, is because when the INTERPRETATIONS made, on the 'data' obtained, FITS IN with the 'currently' HELD BELIEFS, then this is called, and thus becomes, 'supporting evidence'. Which, to some people, this MEANS that what is currently being "SEEN", and/or BELIEVED, to be true, then becomes "more true". The sun revolving around the earth was ALSO a 'popular theory', for quite some time. That WAS; UNTIL thee ACTUAL Truth becomes CLEAR, and SEEN.

The EXACT SAME process is occurring with the, 'the Universe BEGAN and IS EXPANDING' 'popular theory', which existed in the OLDEN days, when this WAS being written.
Skepdick
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by Skepdick »

uwot wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:57 am As I'm sure you are aware, you can draw multiple points on a coordinate system and even lines.
I am sure you are aware that each point is a distinct spacetime location.

Lines between points/locations represent change in space coordinates; change in time coordinates or both.
uwot wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 7:51 am So not only can you identify a location, you can describe what happens there.
So your statement above amounts to "So not only can you identify a point, you can describe what happens at a point".

No. You can't. Nothing happes AT points - things happenening are the lines between points.
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VVilliam
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by VVilliam »

uwot wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:42 am
VVilliam wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:45 amLogically something cannot come from nothing,..
Granted, but we cannot know that the origin of the universe was logical.
VVilliam wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:45 amHave you read this story?
I hadn't. It's a good little story. Metaphysics is fun, but what I'm am trying to explain is what we can actually see. I have no idea what happened before the big bang, or what goes on beyond the visible universe. It could be anything; maybe Asimov was right.
What we can actually see is known not to be fundamental reality. We are seeing the clock-face and the mathematics tell us that there is clockwork concealed behind the clock-face - so we can at least tell from that, that any beginning to this universe is not fundamental.
uwot
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by uwot »

Skepdick wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:21 pm
uwot wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:57 am As I'm sure you are aware, you can draw multiple points on a coordinate system and even lines.
I am sure you are aware that each point is a distinct spacetime location.
Well Skepdick, in the clumsy vernacular that real people speak, location refers to x,y and z.
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:21 pmLines between points/locations represent change in space coordinates; change in time coordinates or both.
Don't they just?
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:21 pm
uwot wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 7:51 am So not only can you identify a location, you can describe what happens there.
So your statement above amounts to "So not only can you identify a point, you can describe what happens at a point".

No. You can't. Nothing happes AT points - things happenening are the lines between points.
As you correctly point out, that line can be in t, while x,y and z remain constant, relative to some location of your choosing.
uwot
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by uwot »

VVilliam wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:54 pmWhat we can actually see is known not to be fundamental reality.
Not to idealists, and they have a point: it is conceivable that perception is the fundamental reality.
VVilliam wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:54 pmWe are seeing the clock-face and the mathematics tell us that there is clockwork concealed behind the clock-face - so we can at least tell from that, that any beginning to this universe is not fundamental.
As Einstein put it:
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Sidelights on Relativity (1920)
Skepdick
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by Skepdick »

uwot wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:36 pm Well Skepdick, in the clumsy vernacular that real people speak, location refers to x,y and z.
Yeah, sure. If x, y and z are different points then they refer to different spacetime coordinates.
uwot wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:36 pm As you correctly point out, that line can be in t, while x,y and z remain constant, relative to some location of your choosing.
Hence...
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:21 pm Lines between points/locations represent change in space coordinates; change in time coordinates or both.
If x, y and z are different in space, but not in time then change in space happened.
if x, y and z are different in time, but not in space then change in time happened.

But nothing happens AT x, y and z.
uwot
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by uwot »

Skepdick wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 7:46 amIf x, y and z are different in space, but not in time then change in space happened.
How does change in space happen if there is no change in time?
Skepdick wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 7:46 amif x, y and z are different in time, but not in space then change in time happened.

But nothing happens AT x, y and z.
No, not without t.
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by Skepdick »

uwot wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 9:19 am How does change in space happen if there is no change in time?
Perspectives/parallax.

Your position in relation to everything at time t.
My position in relation to everything at time t.
uwot
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by uwot »

Skepdick wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 9:33 am
uwot wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 9:19 am How does change in space happen if there is no change in time?
Perspectives/parallax.

Your position in relation to everything at time t.
My position in relation to everything at time t.
But that's just two sets of values of x, y and z for the same point in space. That is difference, which is different to change.
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by Skepdick »

uwot wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 9:46 am But that's just two sets of values of x, y and z for the same point in space. That is difference, which is different to change.
It's not the same point in space. It's different points in space at the same time - t.

Everything is different to everything. That's not even an interesting observation.
uwot
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by uwot »

Skepdick wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 9:47 am
uwot wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 9:46 am But that's just two sets of values of x, y and z for the same point in space. That is difference, which is different to change.
It's not the same point in space. It's different points in space at the same time - t.
Well then you don't have to appeal to perspective or parallax to explain why they have changed if they weren't the same thing in the first place.
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Re: Currant Buns and Pop Guns - The Big Bang

Post by Skepdick »

uwot wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 9:50 am Well then you don't have to appeal to perspective or parallax to explain why they have changed if they weren't the same thing in the first place.
They are always the same thing. For a given time.
They are always different things. At different times.

You are welcome to elaborate on the delta however you want.
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