What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by RCSaunders »

socrat44 wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:59 am What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?
Spacetime may emerge from a more fundamental reality. Figuring out how
could unlock the most urgent goal in physics—a quantum theory of gravity
Will we ever know the real nature of space and time?
Can we know the global structure of spacetime?
“How the hell could spacetime be the kind of thing that could be emergent?”
asks Eleanor Knox, a philosopher of physics at King’s College London.
THE FUTURE OF SPACE AT THE EDGE OF TIME
Modern physics is a victim of its own success. Because quantum physics and
general relativity are both so phenomenally accurate, quantum gravity is needed
only to describe extreme situations, when enormous masses are stuffed into
unfathomably tiny spaces. Those conditions exist in only a few places in nature,
such as the center of a black hole—and notably not in physics laboratories,
not even the largest and most powerful ones. It would take a particle accelerator
the size of a galaxy to directly test the behavior of nature under conditions where
quantum gravity reigns. This lack of direct experimental data is a large part of the
reason why scientists’ search for a theory of quantum gravity has been so long.
/ by Adam Becker /
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... y-made-of/
Space time is made entirely of "whole cloth."
socrat44
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:20 pm

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by socrat44 »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:20 pm Space time is made entirely of "whole cloth."
What is space-time?
By Adam Mann published May 20, 2021
A simple explanation of the fabric of space-time
https://www.livescience.com/space-time.html
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by RCSaunders »

socrat44 wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:48 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:20 pm Space time is made entirely of "whole cloth."
What is space-time?
By Adam Mann published May 20, 2021
A simple explanation of the fabric of space-time
https://www.livescience.com/space-time.html
If you are going to read these, "comic book," versions of science, at least pay attention to what is written. The very first paragraph explains:
The famous physicist Albert Einstein helped develop the idea of space-time as part of his theory of relativity. Prior to his pioneering work, scientists had two separate theories to explain physical phenomena: Isaac Newton's laws of physics described the motion of massive objects, while James Clerk Maxwell's electromagnetic models explained the properties of light, according to NASA.
Everyone who learns a little physics misunderstands, that most of the concepts of physics do not identify actual entities or substances as they actually exist, but are, "models," or, "metaphors," which use the attributes of actual physical existents (like waves and particles) to illustrate or picture what is going on at a physical level that cannot be seen or actually perceived.

Take the model of the atom for example:
Atoms are a method used by scientists to, "picture," or, "illustrate," the nature of the chemical attributes of actual physical entities. There are no atoms, "in themselves," only atoms as a means of describing the chemical properties of physical things. At one time, atoms were, "pictured," as, "particles," like tiny round pellets, then as little balls with other balls imbedded in them, or miniature, "solar systems," like the Rutherford and Bohr models.
Image

This is how atoms are modeled today:

Image
Atoms are no longer pictured as tiny particles, but more as, "clouds," or, "waves," as in the Schrodinger (or quantum) model of an atom. They are all only models, however, and have no existence of their own except as explanations of the chemical nature of real physical entities which actually exist on their own and can be seen, heard, felt, smelled, and tasted. Atoms are, in fact, just very useful fictions invented to help scientist picture what are only properties and not actual entities at all.
Or Maxwell's, "magnetic fields," or Newton's, "gravitational field," or light being pictured as both a particle, (to describe it's quantum properties), and as a wave, (to describe it's wave-like properties).

When it was first discovered that light could be described as a wave, scientitsts assumed a light (or electro-magnetic) wave had to be a wave of something which it would have to travel through the way sound travels as a wave through a medium. If there were such a medium, everything would be emersed in it, including the earth, in which case, light traveling through that medium would travel at different speeds depending on which way the earth was traveling through that medium. The medium was call the, "luminiferous aether," and the hypothesis was called the, "aether theory of light." In the late 1800s, Michelson, and Morley handily proved light travels at the same speed in any direction. There is no aether.

Einstein actually used the word, "aether," when first describing the gravitational field within general relativity, but that word was soon replaced by the geodesic description now known as, "space-time." Einstein himself said of that "aether," cum, "space-time," model, no "substance" and no state of motion can be attributed to it.

There is no more an actual thing, "space time," than there was, "luminiferous aether." "Space-time," is only a model, an elaborate metaphorical description that helps to picture or illustrate how actual physical existents behave relative to each other, but there is no actual stuff or thing, "space-time."

Here's a question to ask yourself. If, "space-time," were actually some kind of substance or stuff, how could anything travel through it without friction?
seeds
Posts: 2143
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by seeds »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:26 pm ...There is no more an actual thing, "space time," than there was, "luminiferous aether." "Space-time," is only a model, an elaborate metaphorical description that helps to picture or illustrate how actual physical existents behave relative to each other, but there is no actual stuff or thing, "space-time."

Here's a question to ask yourself. If, "space-time," were actually some kind of substance or stuff, how could anything travel through it without friction?
In light of the fact that physicists claim that 95% of the universe is comprised of something that they cannot directly measure or account for; indeed something that they call "DARK" (as in "dark energy" and "dark matter"),...

...then I would suggest that all bets are off when it comes to ruling-out the possibility that what we call "space-time"...

(or whatever it is that binds the universe together into a singular and indivisible whole)

...might well be composed of an "aether-like" substance that our present state of science simply cannot comprehend.
_______
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8529
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by Sculptor »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:20 pm
socrat44 wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:59 am What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?
Spacetime may emerge from a more fundamental reality. Figuring out how
could unlock the most urgent goal in physics—a quantum theory of gravity
Will we ever know the real nature of space and time?
Can we know the global structure of spacetime?
“How the hell could spacetime be the kind of thing that could be emergent?”
asks Eleanor Knox, a philosopher of physics at King’s College London.
THE FUTURE OF SPACE AT THE EDGE OF TIME
Modern physics is a victim of its own success. Because quantum physics and
general relativity are both so phenomenally accurate, quantum gravity is needed
only to describe extreme situations, when enormous masses are stuffed into
unfathomably tiny spaces. Those conditions exist in only a few places in nature,
such as the center of a black hole—and notably not in physics laboratories,
not even the largest and most powerful ones. It would take a particle accelerator
the size of a galaxy to directly test the behavior of nature under conditions where
quantum gravity reigns. This lack of direct experimental data is a large part of the
reason why scientists’ search for a theory of quantum gravity has been so long.
/ by Adam Becker /
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... y-made-of/
Space time is made entirely of "whole cloth."
That is why they say the fabric of space time.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by RCSaunders »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 3:57 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:20 pm
socrat44 wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:59 am What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?
Spacetime may emerge from a more fundamental reality. Figuring out how
could unlock the most urgent goal in physics—a quantum theory of gravity
Will we ever know the real nature of space and time?
Can we know the global structure of spacetime?
“How the hell could spacetime be the kind of thing that could be emergent?”
asks Eleanor Knox, a philosopher of physics at King’s College London.
THE FUTURE OF SPACE AT THE EDGE OF TIME
Modern physics is a victim of its own success. Because quantum physics and
general relativity are both so phenomenally accurate, quantum gravity is needed
only to describe extreme situations, when enormous masses are stuffed into
unfathomably tiny spaces. Those conditions exist in only a few places in nature,
such as the center of a black hole—and notably not in physics laboratories,
not even the largest and most powerful ones. It would take a particle accelerator
the size of a galaxy to directly test the behavior of nature under conditions where
quantum gravity reigns. This lack of direct experimental data is a large part of the
reason why scientists’ search for a theory of quantum gravity has been so long.
/ by Adam Becker /
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... y-made-of/
Space time is made entirely of "whole cloth."
That is why they say the fabric of space time.
I knew you would understand.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8529
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by Sculptor »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:00 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 3:57 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:20 pm
Space time is made entirely of "whole cloth."
That is why they say the fabric of space time.
I knew you would understand.
Well, some one has to! :lol:
socrat44
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:20 pm

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by socrat44 »

seeds wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:29 am In light of the fact that physicists claim that 95% of the universe is comprised of something
that they cannot directly measure or account for; indeed something that they call "DARK"
(as in "dark energy" and "dark matter"),...

...then I would suggest that all bets are off when it comes to ruling-out the possibility
that what we call "space-time"...

(or whatever it is that binds the universe together into a singular and indivisible whole)

...might well be composed of an "aether-like" substance that our present state
of science simply cannot comprehend.
_______
Nothingness - Aether - An absolute 4D spacetime - Cosmic void - Cosmic vacuum.
-------.
In the 19th century "aether" was a theorized medium for the propagation of light.
In the 20th century "an absolute 4D spacetime" was a theorized medium
for the propagation of light (light-cone)
In the 21th century "an absolute 4D spacetime" is still subject of debates.
If Einstein's SRT is true theory, then “an absolute 4D spacetime" must also be
a true - real substance / continuum / reference frame.
There isn't physics without the theory of "an absolute 4D spacetime".
There isn't a philosophy of physics without understanding what
"an absolute 4D spacetime" really is.
-------
And where did the "NOTHINGNESS" come from?
-----------.
Attachments
Aether-Tesla.jpg
Aether-Tesla.jpg (19.73 KiB) Viewed 1613 times
Age
Posts: 20194
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by Age »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:00 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 1:48 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 1:28 pm

Bollocks.

Kick a football into the air, what you observe as it returns to the ground is the curvature of spacetime.

The fundamental nature that causes the curvature is SOME THING.
By, "something," I mean an actual entity or substance, i.e. some kind of, "stuff." There is no such, "stuff," as space-time. There is only the behavior of actual entities and substances. The behavior of projectiles in a gravitational, "field,"
And, as I stated - the fundamental nature that causes curvature of spacetime is a THING.
But, if there is NO such 'thing' as 'spacetime', then there could NOT be so-called "curvature of spacetime".

So, if there is such a 'thing' as 'spacetime', then what is 'spacetime', EXACTLY?

By the way, once that is answered, then the question of this thread topic will ALSO be answered.
attofishpi wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:00 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 1:48 pm(another fictional mathematical way of picturing the behavior of actual things) can only be described if you actually have a, "football," a real thing.

The phenomena being described by these fictions is real and exists (as a concept), but attributing actual physical existence to them is reification.
To comprehend reality is to look at it in abstraction from what we immediately perceive - reification is required to step beyond what you insist on your comprehension of reality - via those senses that you perceive reality through.
But if ANY one wants to 'comprehend reality', for what 'Reality' EXACTLY IS, then all one has to do is just LOOK AT 'Reality' from the Truly OPEN perspective.
Age
Posts: 20194
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by Age »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:11 am
Cerveny wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:08 am After all, I'm afraid that's the only reasonable explanation for reality. I can't understand otherwise why there is only a limited spectrum of stable particles, why spin and electric charge can only have a limited value, why particles can only apear in complementary pairs. What hinders other possibilities!!? So I strongly believe that all the properties of reality are derived from the (lattice) structure of its regular, discrete substrate, from the crystal of physical space. Please refer to the terms "crystal defects", "growth of screw dislocations" ~ spin…
Your problem is not the physics. Your problem is your normatives (as usual).

You have some pre-conceived notions of "reasonableness", "explanation" and "understanding".
You actually believe reality is understandable to us, apes.
To understand 'Reality' for what 'It' Truly IS one has to have already evolved out of and past the 'you', Assuming on Previous Experiences Species, or also known as; human beings.

Once that has been done 'Reality', or thee Truth of 'things', becomes almost immediately 'understood' AND 'known'.
attofishpi wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:00 pm The crux of your problem is that you missed the word "model" in the "standard model of physics". Maybe you have a mathematical intuition for what a model is. Maybe you understand that given finite observations - infinite models are possible. Maybe you don't.

Maybe lattices aren't the correct mathematical structure in which to interpret the results and you need a bigger, higher-order structure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-dependent_realism
Age
Posts: 20194
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by Age »

socrat44 wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:50 am
Age wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:29 am
socrat44 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:27 pm

an absolute Minkowski 4D "spacetime''
So, from what you are saying and showing here 'spacetime' is just an idea or concept, and therefore what 'spacetime' is Really made of is just 'human thought' only.

If, however, any one wants to KNOW what thee Universe, Itself, and/or 'space' and 'time' as well, are REALLY made up of, then that would, literally, be another question.
“The views of space and time which I wish to lay before you have sprung
from the soil of experimental physics, and therein lies their strength.
They are radical. Henceforth, (gravity) space (of planets) by itself,
and (gravity) time (of planets) by itself, are doomed to fade away
into mere shadows, and only a kind of union of the two
/ in reality, the union of the two can be seen only as the cosmic vacuum /
will preserve an independent reality.”
/ Hermann Minkowski /
(What is known as) 'space' AND 'time' exist TOGETHER, forever AND always.
Age
Posts: 20194
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by Age »

seeds wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:29 am
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:26 pm ...There is no more an actual thing, "space time," than there was, "luminiferous aether." "Space-time," is only a model, an elaborate metaphorical description that helps to picture or illustrate how actual physical existents behave relative to each other, but there is no actual stuff or thing, "space-time."

Here's a question to ask yourself. If, "space-time," were actually some kind of substance or stuff, how could anything travel through it without friction?
In light of the fact that physicists claim that 95% of the universe is comprised of something that they cannot directly measure or account for; indeed something that they call "DARK" (as in "dark energy" and "dark matter"),...

...then I would suggest that all bets are off when it comes to ruling-out the possibility that what we call "space-time"...

(or whatever it is that binds the universe together into a singular and indivisible whole)

...might well be composed of an "aether-like" substance that our present state of science simply cannot comprehend.
_______
The Universe, Itself, is made up, FUNDAMENTALLY, of two 'things', ONLY.

They can be known as and called; 'something' AND 'nothing'. That is ALL that exists. Now, the word 'something' refers to, literally, some 'thing', which for easy of demonstrating is just ALL of those physical 'things' that can be seen, heard, felt, smelt, and/or tasted. The other 'thing' that "exists" in the Universe is 'nothing'. This 'nothing' is PROBABLY just what so-called "scientists" refer to as "dark energy" or "dark matter". The word 'nothing' refers to, literally, no 'thing' (at all). Which is what the 'space' is usually being referred to, when used.

So, the Universe, it could be said and argued, is made up of 'space' (or no thing) AND 'matter' (or some thing). If the Universe is ABOUT 95% invisible 'space', or just no 'thing', AND, ABOUT 5% visible (or physical) matter, or just some 'thing', then so be it. There is absolutely and literally NOTHING AT ALL hard NOR complex to understand and comprehend here so far.

The TWO 'space' AND 'matter' COEXIST TOGETHER in One SOLITARY and SINGULAR indivisible WHOLE. In Fact they BOTH HAVE TO COEXIST TOGETHER as there could NOT be just 'one' OR 'the other'. And, the reason WHY there could NEVER be just 'one' OR 'the other', and ALWAYS HAS TO BE BOTH TOGETHER COEXISTING as One is BECAUSE there is a 'Being' 'consciously aware' of this Fact. And, if there was just EITHER 'space' (no 'thing') OR 'matter' (some 'thing'), then there could NOT exist Consciousness, Itself, which is just thy Self. Now, it COULD BE POSSIBLE for there to just 'exist' SOLELY 'space' OR 'matter' ONLY. But, because they BOTH 'exist' NOW, then they have BOTH ALWAYS EXISTED or COEXISTED. It could therefore be 'argued' that because of the OTHER they BOTH 'create' EACH OTHER'S EXISTENCE.

Now, as for the word 'time', this is just a word that is used to explain the behavior of just measuring the distance, or duration, between two perceived different events.

Because there is REALLY only the two 'things' of 'something' AND of 'nothing', 'existing', because of these two 'things' there is CONSTANT-MOTION, which is just what is measured and which that measuring is noted by the word 'time'. There is REALLY only 'matter' CONTINUALLY CHANGING in shape AND in form, which this 'constant' or 'continual-change' is just noted by the word 'evolution', and it is through this 'constantly-changing' evolution how Consciousness, Itself, came to KNOW thy Self.

'spacetime' was just ANOTHER word, made up, to "help" refer to some 'thing', which could NOT YET be FULLY EXPLAINED and just IMAGINED, within a MODEL of what was just ASSUMED 'could be' the actual truth of 'things'.

WITHIN the ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth of 'things', the word 'spacetime' does NOT refer to ANY ACTUAL 'thing'. However, the word 'space' just refers to the 'distance' between visible matter, and, the word 'time' just refers to the 'distance' between the CHANGE in visible matter.
Age
Posts: 20194
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by Age »

socrat44 wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:22 am
seeds wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:29 am In light of the fact that physicists claim that 95% of the universe is comprised of something
that they cannot directly measure or account for; indeed something that they call "DARK"
(as in "dark energy" and "dark matter"),...

...then I would suggest that all bets are off when it comes to ruling-out the possibility
that what we call "space-time"...

(or whatever it is that binds the universe together into a singular and indivisible whole)

...might well be composed of an "aether-like" substance that our present state
of science simply cannot comprehend.
_______
Nothingness - Aether - An absolute 4D spacetime - Cosmic void - Cosmic vacuum.
For a 'thing', let us call, the 'human being', to exist, then 'nothingness' HAS TO, ALSO, be IN Existence, Itself.

For 'matter' to be able to move about FREELY in order to 'fall into' or 'evolve into' the shape of the human body, then there HAS TO BE a 'space' of 'nothing', or of 'nothingness', around and between 'matter'.

So, for the Universe to be EXACTLY the shape and way It is, at ANY given moment, then there HAS TO EXIST 'matter' AND a 'nothingness'.
socrat44 wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:22 am ------.
In the 19th century "aether" was a theorized medium for the propagation of light.
In the 20th century "an absolute 4D spacetime" was a theorized medium
for the propagation of light (light-cone)
In the 21th century "an absolute 4D spacetime" is still subject of debates.
If Einstein's SRT is true theory, then “an absolute 4D spacetime" must also be
a true - real substance / continuum / reference frame.
There isn't physics without the theory of "an absolute 4D spacetime".
There isn't a philosophy of physics without understanding what
"an absolute 4D spacetime" really is.
-------
And where did the "NOTHINGNESS" come from?
-----------.
The 'nothingness' ONLY 'exists' BECAUSE there is a 'space', or a 'distance', between visible or physical 'matter'.

'nothingness' 'comes from' or 'exists' because of 'matter', itself, and likewise, 'matter' 'comes from' or 'exists' because of the 'space' or 'nothingness', which is what separates 'matter' from itself.

'matter' AND 'nothingness' have ALWAYS existed, TOGETHER. So, they did NOT 'come from', in the sense of just appearing from 'out of nothing' nor 'from somewhere ELSE'. BUT, they BOTH 'come from' BECAUSE OF the OTHER one. They BOTH 'exist' because they are IN CONTRAST to the OTHER one.

The Grand Unified "Theory" WILL include the Fact that EVERY 'thing' HAS an OPPOSITE and that they BOTH TOGETHER 'sit' in EQUILIBRIUM, FOREVER and ALWAYS.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by bahman »

socrat44 wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:59 am What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?
Spacetime may emerge from a more fundamental reality. Figuring out how
could unlock the most urgent goal in physics—a quantum theory of gravity
Will we ever know the real nature of space and time?
Can we know the global structure of spacetime?
“How the hell could spacetime be the kind of thing that could be emergent?”
asks Eleanor Knox, a philosopher of physics at King’s College London.
THE FUTURE OF SPACE AT THE EDGE OF TIME
Modern physics is a victim of its own success. Because quantum physics and
general relativity are both so phenomenally accurate, quantum gravity is needed
only to describe extreme situations, when enormous masses are stuffed into
unfathomably tiny spaces. Those conditions exist in only a few places in nature,
such as the center of a black hole—and notably not in physics laboratories,
not even the largest and most powerful ones. It would take a particle accelerator
the size of a galaxy to directly test the behavior of nature under conditions where
quantum gravity reigns. This lack of direct experimental data is a large part of the
reason why scientists’ search for a theory of quantum gravity has been so long.
/ by Adam Becker /
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... y-made-of/
Space-time is a substance. You get graviton once you quantize it.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: What Is Spacetime Really Made Of?

Post by RCSaunders »

Age wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:41 am The Universe, Itself, is made up, FUNDAMENTALLY, of two 'things', ONLY.
And what are those two things made of?
Post Reply