seeds wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:32 am
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm
Consider that the universe is finite. This means that the universe is bounded by something, let's call it A. A is either finite or infinite. The sum of the universe and A is infinite if A is infinite. We have a regress if A is finite. Regress is infinite. Therefore either the universe is infinite or the universe and what bounds it is infinite.
The universe is indeed bounded by something.
It is bounded (or delineated) by the limited amount of substance that makes up the sum-total of its construction - as is implied in the following type of (Big Bang inspired) illustration...
In which case, the only thing that is "infinite" in this situation is not the universe itself, but the infinite "nothingness" that extends in all directions away from the "finite" somethingness of what we commonly think of as being the universe...
...The bottom line is that, NO, the universe - in and of itself - is not "infinite."
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bahman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:20 pm
What is the black area in the figure?
it is a representation of
"absolute nothingness."
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:20 pm
Did you understand my argument?
I'm pretty sure I understand it better than you do. However, let's break it down...
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm
Consider that the universe is finite.
Okay.
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm
This means that the universe is bounded by something, let's call it A.
By "bounded," I assume you mean "surrounded" by something that is not a part of the universe itself. And that would be represented by the
"black area" in the illustration.
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm
A is either finite or infinite.
In the case of "A" as it pertains to the illustration (with "A" being the "black area"), then it is
infinite.
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm
The sum of the universe and A is infinite if A is infinite.
And this is where the problem arises, because in your initial statement to socrat44, you said the following...
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:23 pm
The universe itself is infinite.
...and made no mention of needing to sum it together with that which you have named "A".
Well, the fact of the matter is that "A" (again, the infinite nothingness represented by the "black area" in the illustration) is
not a part of the universe (as was pointed out earlier), thus you have no business using it in your argument.
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm
We have a regress if A is finite.
"A" is not finite; "A" is infinite. Therefore, no regress.
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm
Regress is infinite.
An irrelevant point because, again, "A" is infinite.
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:08 pm
Therefore either the universe is infinite or the universe and what bounds it is infinite.
Again, based on your initial assertion to socrat44,...
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:23 pm
The universe itself is infinite.
...you have no business including "A" in your argument, for "A" is not a part of what we normally think of as being the universe.
Indeed, what we normally think of as being
"the universe" is the bubble-like phenomenon that is clearly depicted in the illustration as being a
"finite" structure suspended in an infinite void of absolute nothingness...
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