A Dawkins No-No

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:35 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:11 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:21 pm

I'm a deist, not a theist. My God is silent; he left me no holy words or holy men; I have no church.

He gave me a body & soul, a free will, and a moral compass.

And: you didn't read but a pargraph or two of The Law...you got no cause to say diddly about it till you do.
How good of him to 'endow' you with those things. Just like a benign dictator....
How is a Maker who promises no punishment or paradise, who endows man with a moral sense and the capacity to ignore that moral sense in anyway a dictator? A practical joker, mebbe, but, no, not a dictator.
I think the clue is in the word 'endows'... Where did you come up with your magic man anyway? Why do you need him?
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:38 pm the military, yet it's the ONE thing that Henry doesn't mind paying for

Wrong again. All taxation is thievery and the military is an occupyin' force.

Really, if you're gonna mock me, you oughta at least stay in the ballpark of what I believe.
Not true. I have heard you say this. At least be consistent.
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:53 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:35 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:11 pm

How good of him to 'endow' you with those things. Just like a benign dictator....
How is a Maker who promises no punishment or paradise, who endows man with a moral sense and the capacity to ignore that moral sense in anyway a dictator? A practical joker, mebbe, but, no, not a dictator.
I think the clue is in the word 'endows'... Where did you come up with your magic man anyway? Why do you need him?
I became a deist after much thought on free will. He's not a salvation, he's an explanation. And I I'm not seein' how endows implies dictatorship.
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:55 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:38 pm the military, yet it's the ONE thing that Henry doesn't mind paying for

Wrong again. All taxation is thievery and the military is an occupyin' force.

Really, if you're gonna mock me, you oughta at least stay in the ballpark of what I believe.
Not true. I have heard you say this. At least be consistent.
Then you should have no problem ponying up the evidence.

Please, cite the post or posts wherein I say I don't mind payin' taxes for the military.
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:25 pm The American Revolution might be an example that looked, at least temporarily, like a success.
The so-called "American Revolution," was not really a revolution. It was really the creation of a government where there had been none. (The British government never really ruled in America, though it tried to.)

Within a year of signing of the Constitution government repression began in earnest when the wheat farmers in the west (west New York) decided to make whiskey from their grain rather then pay the exorbitant shipping costs to the East. To make up the loss of revenue the government put a tax on whiskey, depriving the farmers of their income resulting in the whiskey rebellion and the government murders that put down the rebellion. The American government has only become more corrupt since. (Just been reading about Harris and McKinley).
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:25 pm Yet another reason why big government cannot ever be trusted.
No government can be trusted. The Israelites should have listened to Samuel.
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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RCSaunders wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:13 am No government can be trusted. The Israelites should have listened to Samuel.
Yes, and yes.
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:27 pm I believe you're American, yeah?
No, I'm an individual human being. I happened to have been born in the United States but had no choice in the matter. I now live in the United States, but have not always, and I do not identify myself as a US citizen and have no allegiance to what is called, "America society or culture," especially its politics, though I love and enjoy a great many other individuals living in this country, no matter where they were born or how they choose to live their lives. I regard, "patirotism," a disease, and most of American society totally ignorant, corrupt, and decadent. It is not possible to save them and only a fool would try--but there is no lack of those.
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:52 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:55 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:38 pm the military, yet it's the ONE thing that Henry doesn't mind paying for

Wrong again. All taxation is thievery and the military is an occupyin' force.

Really, if you're gonna mock me, you oughta at least stay in the ballpark of what I believe.
Not true. I have heard you say this. At least be consistent.
Then you should have no problem ponying up the evidence.

Please, cite the post or posts wherein I say I don't mind payin' taxes for the military.
I'm not going to trowel through a decade of comments. You must know what you've written. You always brush over it but include it in your ideal govts. 'limited spending'.
Why do yanks equate freedom with money anyway? Surely in your law-of-the-jungle utopia there would be no money. Ron Swanson has his riches in gold, in a hole in the ground (while working for the govt.) :lol:
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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RCSaunders wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:26 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:27 pm I believe you're American, yeah?
No, I'm an individual human being. I happened to have been born in the United States but had no choice in the matter. I now live in the United States, but have not always, and I do not identify myself as a US citizen and have no allegiance to what is called, "America society or culture," especially its politics, though I love and enjoy a great many other individuals living in this country, no matter where they were born or how they choose to live their lives. I regard, "patirotism," a disease, and most of American society totally ignorant, corrupt, and decadent. It is not possible to save them and only a fool would try--but there is no lack of those.
Christ, guy, all you needed to say was yeah, I live in the US...me, I really don't need the bio or the philo-recap.

In context: I asked if you were American cuz, as I say, a fight is comin' and since you won't fight, mebbe you can hunker down cuz I'm fond of you.

But: fuck it.

I'm really startin' to dislike this place.
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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RCSaunders wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:13 am
No government can be trusted. The Israelites should have listened to Samuel.
But some can be 'trusted' more than others. What about referendums? Ever heard of 'the wisdom of the crowd'?
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:36 am
henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:52 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:55 pm

Not true. I have heard you say this. At least be consistent.
Then you should have no problem ponying up the evidence.

Please, cite the post or posts wherein I say I don't mind payin' taxes for the military.
I'm not going to trowel through a decade of comments. You must know what you've written. You always brush over it but include it in your ideal govts. 'limited spending'.
Why do yanks equate freedom with money anyway? Surely in your law-of-the-jungle utopia there would be no money. Ron Swanson has his riches in gold, in a hole in the ground (while working for the govt.) :lol:
So: you got nuthin' to support your claim I supports taxes to fund the military (which, had you gone lookin', you woulda never found cuz I never said it).

And: the rest is for crap and not worth comment (cuz you're wrong, wrong, wrong).
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:49 pm It's inevitable: man must be, is, free...he fights for it, dreams of it, lives it as he can.
I know you'd like that to be true, Henry, but it just isn't. Even though who talk the most about liberty and freedom, don't really want freedom, and if true freedom were forced on them, they would hate it.

There is reason most people hate freedom. George Bernard Shaw said it most succinctly, "liberty means responsibility, that's why most men dread it." H.L. Mencken said it another way:
The fact is that the average man’s love of liberty is nine-tenths imaginary, exactly like his love of sense, justice and truth. He is not actually happy when free; he is uncomfortable, a bit alarmed, and intolerably lonely. Liberty is not a thing for the great masses of men. It is the exclusive possession of a small and disreputable minority, like knowledge, courage and honor. It takes a special sort of man to understand and enjoy liberty — and he is usually an outlaw in democratic societies.
Those who claim to want freedom, with rare exception, have no idea what it is. The truth is, no matter how much they claim to want freedom, what they really embrace is slavery, because they are not willing to pay the price of freedom.

From : Freedom Not For Everyone:
Most Do Not Want To Be Free

What most people want is not freedom. What most people want is security, safety, guarantees, protection from change, and comfort. Most have no confidence in their own ability to live their lives successfully. For the truly free, there are no guarantees in life, and one must face every risk on their own, either learning how to deal with them, or suffering the consequences. For the truly free, nothing is provided and everything must be acquired or achieved by one's own effort. For those who love freedom, these are freedom's virtues, but for most people, the very virtues of freedom are a source of terror.

Most people will not choose to be free because the collectivists and statists are offering exactly what most people desire. Where freedom offers responsibility, the state offers relief from that responsibility. "Don't worry about making provisions for your old age, the state will take care of it." Where freedom offers the reality of risk and danger, the state offers guarantees of safety. "Don't worry about natural disasters, the government will take care of everything and protect you from them. Don't worry about the dangers of the world, the government will pass laws that will make everything safe, your job, your food, your medicine, even driving your car."

How Slavery Is Put Over

It's not called slavery, it's called, "social order," when individuals are forced to comply with rules made by others for the benefit of others. It begins small. It's only a little oppression, but it's, "for a good cause," but once a principle is violated, whatever the justification, there is never a limit to that violation. Once the the freedom principle is violated, there is no end of the restrictions and demands on one's choices and life that will follow.

What begins as, "we cannot allow people to starve," ends as, "we cannot allow people to be uneducated, not have good housing, be poor in their old age, not have health care, not have a job, not be protected from scurrilous marketers, not be "safe" on the highway, business, homes, bathrooms, or ... (supply your favorite thing no one should have to go without, whether they earn it or not). You can have all of these things and more, at least until the slaves who are supplying them realize they are slaves; you can have them, but you cannot have them and freedom too.

The Price Of Freedom

The price of freedom is not having all those things. It is the price most are unwilling to pay. It means not having the government supply your education, health care, expensive drugs, and guaranteed retirement income. It means not being guaranteed no one will ever say something mean to or about you. It means there are no guarantees. It means you will live in a world of danger, temptation, and risks. It means you will be responsible for every aspect of your own life from the time you reach adulthood until you die. It means, if you mess up your life, you and only you will suffer the consequences.

That is the price of freedom. It is the price most people are not willing to pay.
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:41 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:36 am
henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:52 am

Then you should have no problem ponying up the evidence.

Please, cite the post or posts wherein I say I don't mind payin' taxes for the military.
I'm not going to trowel through a decade of comments. You must know what you've written. You always brush over it but include it in your ideal govts. 'limited spending'.
Why do yanks equate freedom with money anyway? Surely in your law-of-the-jungle utopia there would be no money. Ron Swanson has his riches in gold, in a hole in the ground (while working for the govt.) :lol:
So: you got nuthin' to support your claim I supports taxes to fund the military (which, had you gone lookin', you woulda never found cuz I never said it).

And: the rest is for crap and not worth comment (cuz you're wrong, wrong, wrong).
Cuz you say so....
If you had said you don't believe in funding the military then that would have definitely stood out.
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:49 pm No man craves the leash ...
If you think a leash is the only form of slavery or that, so long as one is not chained up or imprisoned, they are free, you have a very shallow view of freedom, it seems to me. Most people gladly give up, what they call, "a little freedom," for the sake of society, or safety, or peace-of-mind, or to evade risk or difficulty. Some give up freedom for very practical reason (like indentured servants). Most give up freedom simply because they are unwilling to pay the price of total responsibility for their own life and choices and crave relief from risk and difficulty such responsibility entails.
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Re: A Dawkins No-No

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henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:41 am So: you got nuthin' to support your claim I supports taxes to fund the military ...
Do you believe there should be a military, Henry?
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