Plank length and what is between

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Plank length and what is between

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bahman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:08 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:58 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:44 pm
And according to these properties, space bends and can carry information.
But above you just wrote "Empty space doesn't have any property but volume."
I make a distinction between "space" and "empty space". The first one is the one that we are dealing with in which has properties rather than volume. The second one just has volume as a property.
Right. But for the second one, then, there's an obvious problem saying that there's a "nothing" with volume.
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bahman
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Re: Plank length and what is between

Post by bahman »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:03 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:08 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:58 pm
But above you just wrote "Empty space doesn't have any property but volume."
I make a distinction between "space" and "empty space". The first one is the one that we are dealing with in which has properties rather than volume. The second one just has volume as a property.
Right. But for the second one, then, there's an obvious problem saying that there's a "nothing" with volume.
Nothing has no property so you could eliminate it always without affecting anything. The second case that you are mentioning cannot carry information. We know that space carries information because it can bend. So it should have other properties that allow this to happen. Having properties means that it exists as a substance.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Plank length and what is between

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bahman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:16 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:03 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:08 pm
I make a distinction between "space" and "empty space". The first one is the one that we are dealing with in which has properties rather than volume. The second one just has volume as a property.
Right. But for the second one, then, there's an obvious problem saying that there's a "nothing" with volume.
Nothing has no property so you could eliminate it always without affecting anything. The second case that you are mentioning cannot carry information. We know that space carries information because it can bend. So it should have other properties that allow this to happen. Having properties means that it exists as a substance.
We're not literally seeing space bend. We're seeing gravitational phenomena of objects like stars. "Space bending" is a way to visualize and account for the gravitational data.
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bahman
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Re: Plank length and what is between

Post by bahman »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:42 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:16 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:03 pm
Right. But for the second one, then, there's an obvious problem saying that there's a "nothing" with volume.
Nothing has no property so you could eliminate it always without affecting anything. The second case that you are mentioning cannot carry information. We know that space carries information because it can bend. So it should have other properties that allow this to happen. Having properties means that it exists as a substance.
We're not literally seeing space bend. We're seeing gravitational phenomena of objects like stars. "Space bending" is a way to visualize and account for the gravitational data.
We observed the gravitational lens. Also the gravitational wave. That means that space-time bend.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Plank length and what is between

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bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:25 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:42 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:16 pm
Nothing has no property so you could eliminate it always without affecting anything. The second case that you are mentioning cannot carry information. We know that space carries information because it can bend. So it should have other properties that allow this to happen. Having properties means that it exists as a substance.
We're not literally seeing space bend. We're seeing gravitational phenomena of objects like stars. "Space bending" is a way to visualize and account for the gravitational data.
We observed the gravitational lens. Also the gravitational wave. That means that space-time bend.
Isn't what we actually observed changes in light around astronomical objects and changes in a laser/mirror/etc. set-up?
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bahman
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Re: Plank length and what is between

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Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:49 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:25 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:42 am
We're not literally seeing space bend. We're seeing gravitational phenomena of objects like stars. "Space bending" is a way to visualize and account for the gravitational data.
We observed the gravitational lens. Also the gravitational wave. That means that space-time bend.
Isn't what we actually observed changes in light around astronomical objects and changes in a laser/mirror/etc. set-up?
No, the light goes the shortest length always in space-time. This length is curved around an object with mass. There is nothing wrong with set-up? Physicists are experts on doing this.
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Re: Plank length and what is between

Post by Terrapin Station »

bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:37 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:49 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:25 am
We observed the gravitational lens. Also the gravitational wave. That means that space-time bend.
Isn't what we actually observed changes in light around astronomical objects and changes in a laser/mirror/etc. set-up?
No, the light goes the shortest length always in space-time. This length is curved around an object with mass. There is nothing wrong with set-up? Physicists are experts on doing this.
Are you saying "No, we're not actually observing changes in light around astronomical objects"?
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bahman
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Re: Plank length and what is between

Post by bahman »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:13 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:37 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:49 pm Isn't what we actually observed changes in light around astronomical objects and changes in a laser/mirror/etc. set-up?
No, the light goes the shortest length always in space-time. This length is curved around an object with mass. There is nothing wrong with set-up? Physicists are experts on doing this.
Are you saying "No, we're not actually observing changes in light around astronomical objects"?
I am not talking about the change right now. In reality, the curvature changes with time depending on the objects' speed.
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Re: Plank length and what is between

Post by Terrapin Station »

bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:41 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:13 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:37 pm
No, the light goes the shortest length always in space-time. This length is curved around an object with mass. There is nothing wrong with set-up? Physicists are experts on doing this.
Are you saying "No, we're not actually observing changes in light around astronomical objects"?
I am not talking about the change right now. In reality, the curvature changes with time depending on the objects' speed.
The point is about what we're literally observing when we supposedly observe space curvature. We're observing something about light with respect to astronomical bodies, right?
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bahman
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Re: Plank length and what is between

Post by bahman »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:06 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:41 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:13 pm
Are you saying "No, we're not actually observing changes in light around astronomical objects"?
I am not talking about the change right now. In reality, the curvature changes with time depending on the objects' speed.
The point is about what we're literally observing when we supposedly observe space curvature. We're observing something about light with respect to astronomical bodies, right?
Yes.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Plank length and what is between

Post by Terrapin Station »

bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:08 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:06 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:41 pm
I am not talking about the change right now. In reality, the curvature changes with time depending on the objects' speed.
The point is about what we're literally observing when we supposedly observe space curvature. We're observing something about light with respect to astronomical bodies, right?
Yes.
Right. So we're not actually observing space being curved, we're observing something about light. Space being curved is just one of many potential explanations of the phenomenon we observe.
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bahman
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Re: Plank length and what is between

Post by bahman »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:19 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:08 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:06 pm
The point is about what we're literally observing when we supposedly observe space curvature. We're observing something about light with respect to astronomical bodies, right?
Yes.
Right. So we're not actually observing space being curved, we're observing something about light. Space being curved is just one of many potential explanations of the phenomenon we observe.
Space bends because of another stronger reason, gravitational waves, that recently were observed.
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bahman
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Re: Plank length and what is between

Post by bahman »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:19 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:08 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:06 pm
The point is about what we're literally observing when we supposedly observe space curvature. We're observing something about light with respect to astronomical bodies, right?
Yes.
Right. So we're not actually observing space being curved, we're observing something about light. Space being curved is just one of many potential explanations of the phenomenon we observe.
You might like to study gravitational wave here.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Plank length and what is between

Post by Terrapin Station »

bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:26 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:19 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:08 pm
Yes.
Right. So we're not actually observing space being curved, we're observing something about light. Space being curved is just one of many potential explanations of the phenomenon we observe.
Space bends because of another stronger reason, gravitational waves, that recently were observed.
Again, with gravitational waves, what we actually observed was a laser set-up.
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bahman
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Re: Plank length and what is between

Post by bahman »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:49 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:26 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:19 pm
Right. So we're not actually observing space being curved, we're observing something about light. Space being curved is just one of many potential explanations of the phenomenon we observe.
Space bends because of another stronger reason, gravitational waves, that recently were observed.
Again, with gravitational waves, what we actually observed was a laser set-up.
There are direct devices as well but they are not that sensitive yet.
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