bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:44 pm
And according to these properties, space bends and can carry information.
But above you just wrote "Empty space doesn't have any property but volume."
I make a distinction between "space" and "empty space". The first one is the one that we are dealing with in which has properties rather than volume. The second one just has volume as a property.
Right. But for the second one, then, there's an obvious problem saying that there's a "nothing" with volume.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:58 pm
But above you just wrote "Empty space doesn't have any property but volume."
I make a distinction between "space" and "empty space". The first one is the one that we are dealing with in which has properties rather than volume. The second one just has volume as a property.
Right. But for the second one, then, there's an obvious problem saying that there's a "nothing" with volume.
Nothing has no property so you could eliminate it always without affecting anything. The second case that you are mentioning cannot carry information. We know that space carries information because it can bend. So it should have other properties that allow this to happen. Having properties means that it exists as a substance.
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:08 pm
I make a distinction between "space" and "empty space". The first one is the one that we are dealing with in which has properties rather than volume. The second one just has volume as a property.
Right. But for the second one, then, there's an obvious problem saying that there's a "nothing" with volume.
Nothing has no property so you could eliminate it always without affecting anything. The second case that you are mentioning cannot carry information. We know that space carries information because it can bend. So it should have other properties that allow this to happen. Having properties means that it exists as a substance.
We're not literally seeing space bend. We're seeing gravitational phenomena of objects like stars. "Space bending" is a way to visualize and account for the gravitational data.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:03 pm
Right. But for the second one, then, there's an obvious problem saying that there's a "nothing" with volume.
Nothing has no property so you could eliminate it always without affecting anything. The second case that you are mentioning cannot carry information. We know that space carries information because it can bend. So it should have other properties that allow this to happen. Having properties means that it exists as a substance.
We're not literally seeing space bend. We're seeing gravitational phenomena of objects like stars. "Space bending" is a way to visualize and account for the gravitational data.
We observed the gravitational lens. Also the gravitational wave. That means that space-time bend.
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:16 pm
Nothing has no property so you could eliminate it always without affecting anything. The second case that you are mentioning cannot carry information. We know that space carries information because it can bend. So it should have other properties that allow this to happen. Having properties means that it exists as a substance.
We're not literally seeing space bend. We're seeing gravitational phenomena of objects like stars. "Space bending" is a way to visualize and account for the gravitational data.
We observed the gravitational lens. Also the gravitational wave. That means that space-time bend.
Isn't what we actually observed changes in light around astronomical objects and changes in a laser/mirror/etc. set-up?
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:42 am
We're not literally seeing space bend. We're seeing gravitational phenomena of objects like stars. "Space bending" is a way to visualize and account for the gravitational data.
We observed the gravitational lens. Also the gravitational wave. That means that space-time bend.
Isn't what we actually observed changes in light around astronomical objects and changes in a laser/mirror/etc. set-up?
No, the light goes the shortest length always in space-time. This length is curved around an object with mass. There is nothing wrong with set-up? Physicists are experts on doing this.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:25 am
We observed the gravitational lens. Also the gravitational wave. That means that space-time bend.
Isn't what we actually observed changes in light around astronomical objects and changes in a laser/mirror/etc. set-up?
No, the light goes the shortest length always in space-time. This length is curved around an object with mass. There is nothing wrong with set-up? Physicists are experts on doing this.
Are you saying "No, we're not actually observing changes in light around astronomical objects"?
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:49 pm
Isn't what we actually observed changes in light around astronomical objects and changes in a laser/mirror/etc. set-up?
No, the light goes the shortest length always in space-time. This length is curved around an object with mass. There is nothing wrong with set-up? Physicists are experts on doing this.
Are you saying "No, we're not actually observing changes in light around astronomical objects"?
I am not talking about the change right now. In reality, the curvature changes with time depending on the objects' speed.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:37 pm
No, the light goes the shortest length always in space-time. This length is curved around an object with mass. There is nothing wrong with set-up? Physicists are experts on doing this.
Are you saying "No, we're not actually observing changes in light around astronomical objects"?
I am not talking about the change right now. In reality, the curvature changes with time depending on the objects' speed.
The point is about what we're literally observing when we supposedly observe space curvature. We're observing something about light with respect to astronomical bodies, right?
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:13 pm
Are you saying "No, we're not actually observing changes in light around astronomical objects"?
I am not talking about the change right now. In reality, the curvature changes with time depending on the objects' speed.
The point is about what we're literally observing when we supposedly observe space curvature. We're observing something about light with respect to astronomical bodies, right?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:41 pm
I am not talking about the change right now. In reality, the curvature changes with time depending on the objects' speed.
The point is about what we're literally observing when we supposedly observe space curvature. We're observing something about light with respect to astronomical bodies, right?
Yes.
Right. So we're not actually observing space being curved, we're observing something about light. Space being curved is just one of many potential explanations of the phenomenon we observe.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:06 pm
The point is about what we're literally observing when we supposedly observe space curvature. We're observing something about light with respect to astronomical bodies, right?
Yes.
Right. So we're not actually observing space being curved, we're observing something about light. Space being curved is just one of many potential explanations of the phenomenon we observe.
Space bends because of another stronger reason, gravitational waves, that recently were observed.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:06 pm
The point is about what we're literally observing when we supposedly observe space curvature. We're observing something about light with respect to astronomical bodies, right?
Yes.
Right. So we're not actually observing space being curved, we're observing something about light. Space being curved is just one of many potential explanations of the phenomenon we observe.
Right. So we're not actually observing space being curved, we're observing something about light. Space being curved is just one of many potential explanations of the phenomenon we observe.
Space bends because of another stronger reason, gravitational waves, that recently were observed.
Again, with gravitational waves, what we actually observed was a laser set-up.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:19 pm
Right. So we're not actually observing space being curved, we're observing something about light. Space being curved is just one of many potential explanations of the phenomenon we observe.
Space bends because of another stronger reason, gravitational waves, that recently were observed.
Again, with gravitational waves, what we actually observed was a laser set-up.
There are direct devices as well but they are not that sensitive yet.