## Change cannot happen at now

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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bahman
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### Change cannot happen at now

Any change contains two states of affair cause and effect (before and after). There is the moment of decision between cause and effect that happens at now. All these, cause, decision, and effect, cannot lay at one point.
Cerveny
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### Re: Change cannot happen at now

bahman wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:22 pm Any change contains two states of affair cause and effect (before and after). There is the moment of decision between cause and effect that happens at now. All these, cause, decision, and effect, cannot lay at one point.
The minimum difference between cause and effect is so called Planck's time...
bahman
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### Re: Change cannot happen at now

Cerveny wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:14 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:22 pm Any change contains two states of affair cause and effect (before and after). There is the moment of decision between cause and effect that happens at now. All these, cause, decision, and effect, cannot lay at one point.
The minimum difference between cause and effect is so called Planck's time...
I think that is infinitesimal.
Cerveny
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### Re: Change cannot happen at now

bahman wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:24 pm
Cerveny wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:14 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:22 pm Any change contains two states of affair cause and effect (before and after). There is the moment of decision between cause and effect that happens at now. All these, cause, decision, and effect, cannot lay at one point.
The minimum difference between cause and effect is so called Planck's time...
I think that is infinitesimal.
Real things cannot be infinitesimal
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=27446&p=425575&hil ... ay#p425575
bahman
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### Re: Change cannot happen at now

Cerveny wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:46 am
bahman wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:24 pm
Cerveny wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:14 pm
The minimum difference between cause and effect is so called Planck's time...
I think that is infinitesimal.
Real things cannot be infinitesimal
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=27446&p=425575&hil ... ay#p425575
The reality seems continuous. That is a physical state. Do you understand how a discrete process can give rise to a continuous state?
PeteJ
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### Re: Change cannot happen at now

bahman wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:22 pm Any change contains two states of affair cause and effect (before and after). There is the moment of decision between cause and effect that happens at now. All these, cause, decision, and effect, cannot lay at one point.
Yes. This is the paradoxical nature of change. The paradox arises when we assume the things that change are truly real and have some 'essence' or substance. To get rid of the paradoxes we have to get rid of the assumption. Time, motion and change are all paradoxical under Realism, a point Zeno of Alea was presumably trying to make.
bahman
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### Re: Change cannot happen at now

PeteJ wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:39 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:22 pm Any change contains two states of affair cause and effect (before and after). There is the moment of decision between cause and effect that happens at now. All these, cause, decision, and effect, cannot lay at one point.
Yes. This is the paradoxical nature of change. The paradox arises when we assume the things that change are truly real and have some 'essence' or substance. To get rid of the paradoxes we have to get rid of the assumption. Time, motion and change are all paradoxical under Realism, a point Zeno of Alea was presumably trying to make.
We experience, a chain of thought, then there is a moment of decision, we then cause. Mind is present always the rest are illusions.
RCSaunders
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### Re: Change cannot happen at now

bahman wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:10 pm The reality seems continuous. That is a physical state. Do you understand how a discrete process can give rise to a continuous state?
Not sure what you are trying to say here, but discrete means discontinuous. All entities are discrete, only attributes, actions of, and relationships between entities are continuous or analog. There is no way one can be turned into the other.

Technically, there is no such thing as a discrete process, only a beginning and an end. Computer events are treated as discrete because they have very short durations, but they are definitely analog.

I designed DtoA and AtoD converters. Both ways, the output only, "represents," the input. It is not the input magically turned into the output, not discrete events turned into continuous events.
RCSaunders
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### Re: Change cannot happen at now

bahman wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:22 pm Any change contains two states of affair cause and effect (before and after). There is the moment of decision between cause and effect that happens at now. All these, cause, decision, and effect, cannot lay at one point.
But, "now," does not mean, "at one point." Now is always a range of time, usually the time during which something is said, or observed, or occurs and no one means by now, "in no time at all." If that is what you mean by now, there is no now.

Very little change can actually be described in terms of, "cause," and, "effect," a very bad notion as described by Hume. Every event is the behavior of entities and what any entity does is determined its own nature and it relationship to all other entities in its immediate ontological context.
bahman
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### Re: Change cannot happen at now

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:19 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:10 pm The reality seems continuous. That is a physical state. Do you understand how a discrete process can give rise to a continuous state?
Not sure what you are trying to say here,
I mean what we experience, which is a physical state, is continuous.
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:19 pm but discrete means discontinuous.
I agree.
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:19 pm All entities are discrete,
I agree.
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:19 pm only attributes, actions of, and relationships between entities are continuous or analog.
How do you know?
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:19 pm There is no way one can be turned into the other.
It seems it can under certain circumstances: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E ... ng_theorem
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:19 pm Technically, there is no such thing as a discrete process, only a beginning and an end. Computer events are treated as discrete because they have very short durations, but they are definitely analog.
I am not talking about computer time scale in here. I am talking about the lowest time scale? Is it discrete or continuous?
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:19 pm I designed DtoA and AtoD converters. Both ways, the output only, "represents," the input. It is not the input magically turned into the output, not discrete events turned into continuous events.
Good for you.
bahman
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### Re: Change cannot happen at now

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:22 pm Any change contains two states of affair cause and effect (before and after). There is the moment of decision between cause and effect that happens at now. All these, cause, decision, and effect, cannot lay at one point.
But, "now," does not mean, "at one point." Now is always a range of time, usually the time during which something is said, or observed, or occurs and no one means by now, "in no time at all." If that is what you mean by now, there is no now.
There is in fact a now, momement of your decision for example. Our experiences seems continuous but according to wtf any line is made of points.
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:27 pm Very little change can actually be described in terms of, "cause," and, "effect," a very bad notion as described by Hume. Every event is the behavior of entities and what any entity does is determined its own nature and it relationship to all other entities in its immediate ontological context.
So you even deny the existence of cause and effect?
Cerveny
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### Re: Change cannot happen at now

bahman wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:10 pm
Cerveny wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:46 am
bahman wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:24 pm
I think that is infinitesimal.
Real things cannot be infinitesimal
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=27446&p=425575&hil ... ay#p425575
The reality seems continuous. That is a physical state. Do you understand how a discrete process can give rise to a continuous state?
See eg time–energy uncertainty relation. You should need unlimited energy to “recognize” zero-like time... There is problem with limited speed of information spreading between interacting subjects/particles too...
bahman
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### Re: Change cannot happen at now

Cerveny wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:46 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:10 pm
Cerveny wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:46 am

Real things cannot be infinitesimal
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=27446&p=425575&hil ... ay#p425575
The reality seems continuous. That is a physical state. Do you understand how a discrete process can give rise to a continuous state?
See eg time–energy uncertainty relation. You should need unlimited energy to “recognize” zero-like time... There is problem with limited speed of information spreading between interacting subjects/particles too...
So how our experience is continuous if the energy is needed to recognize continiuous time is infinite?
Cerveny
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### Re: Change cannot happen at now

bahman wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:35 pm
Cerveny wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:46 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:10 pm
The reality seems continuous. That is a physical state. Do you understand how a discrete process can give rise to a continuous state?
See eg time–energy uncertainty relation. You should need unlimited energy to “recognize” zero-like time... There is problem with limited speed of information spreading between interacting subjects/particles too...
So how our experience is continuous if the energy is needed to recognize continiuous time is infinite?
We probably have different experiences ...
PeteJ
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### Re: Change cannot happen at now

I would suggest reading Hermann Weyl on the continuum, noting in particular his distinction between the 'arithmetical' and 'intuitive' continuum.