There is no emergence

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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popeye1945
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:34 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:28 pm bahman,

I'll be listening! What science is this based upon?
This is not science but a logical argument. Do you understand my argument? Do you see any flaw in it?
I'll give it closer scrutiny.
popeye1945
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by popeye1945 »

[/quote] Matter and energy are reducible substances by which I mean that they can be created or destroyed by the mind. Here, I am discussing that unconscious or mindless matter cannot become conscious or mindful given a configuration, what happens in the brain for example.
[/quote]

bahman,

Matter and energy are reducible substances, you are inferring reducible to nothingness yes? It really doesn't sound like you have a foundation for such statements. You have to have something substantial in order to have a logical argument, otherwise it's just babble
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:37 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:34 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:28 pm bahman,

I'll be listening! What science is this based upon?
This is not science but a logical argument. Do you understand my argument? Do you see any flaw in it?
I'll give it closer scrutiny.
Cool. I will wait for your input.
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:45 pm Matter and energy are reducible substances, you are inferring reducible to nothingness yes? It really doesn't sound like you have a foundation for such statements. You have to have something substantial in order to have a logical argument, otherwise it's just babble
It is a scientific fact that matter is a reducible substance, that can be created and destroyed. I asked to look at a flaw in OP which is a logical argument.
popeye1945
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by popeye1945 »

[/quote] It is a scientific fact that matter is a reducible substance, that can be created and destroyed. I asked to look at a flaw in OP which is a logical argument.
[/quote]

bahman.
Not it is not a scientific fact quite the opposite E=M C squared! meaning energy is indestructible it cannot be destroyed it simply changes form. Your up against modern science----good luck.
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:56 pm bahman.
Not it is not a scientific fact quite the opposite E=M C squared! meaning energy is indestructible it cannot be destroyed it simply changes form. Your up against modern science----good luck.
I have a PhD in condensed matter physics and I study particle physics in very depth. E=MC^2 means that matter can be converted to energy, by the energy I mean photon. Two photons also can collide and produce a pair of matter and antimatter.
popeye1945
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by popeye1945 »

So what do you mean by destroy? What is anti-matter if not energy?
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:59 pm So what do you mean by destroy? What is anti-matter if not energy?
We have two categories of things, matter/animaters, and energy. A matter like an electron. and energy like a photon. An electron can be destroyed if it collides with a positron and the result is two photons. The resulting energy can be calculated from E=MC^2 where M is the mass of electron and positron together. Antimatter is the opposite of matter.
popeye1945
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman,

Give me a link to check this out, the reading I have done states all is energy, when you speak of matter, the matter is energy. The link or links would be most appreciated.
Annette Campbell
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Annette Campbell »

An entity is said to exhibit traits or behaviors that its component components do not possess on their own when they interact to form a larger whole. This phenomenon is known as "emergence" in philosophy, systems theories, science, & the arts. In concepts of integrative layers and complex systems, emergent properties are crucial. For instance, the biological study of the phenomena of life is an emergent aspect of chemistry. Theories that place a strong emphasis on emergent features are known as emergentist theories in philosophy. At least since Aristotle, this idea of emergence has been present. John Stuart Mill and Julian Huxley are two among the several philosophers and scientists who have published on the subject (1887-1975). The word "emergent" was first used in a text by the philosopher G. H. Lewes in 1875: Every outcome is either the sum or difference of the cooperating forces; the former in the case of similar directions and the latter in the case of opposite directions. Additionally, each consequence may be precisely traced back to its constituent parts since they are homogenous and comparable. Contrarily, with emergent, there is a cooperation between entities of different types rather than the addition of measurable motion onto measurable motion or persons of one kind to others of their kind. The emergent differs from its constituents in that they are incomparable and cannot be summed up or divided to produce the emergent.
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:55 pm bahman,

Give me a link to check this out, the reading I have done states all is energy, when you speak of matter, the matter is energy. The link or links would be most appreciated.
Look at this for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_con ... gy_source).
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

Annette Campbell wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:53 am An entity is said to exhibit traits or behaviors that its component components do not possess on their own when they interact to form a larger whole. This phenomenon is known as "emergence" in philosophy, systems theories, science, & the arts. In concepts of integrative layers and complex systems, emergent properties are crucial. For instance, the biological study of the phenomena of life is an emergent aspect of chemistry. Theories that place a strong emphasis on emergent features are known as emergentist theories in philosophy. At least since Aristotle, this idea of emergence has been present. John Stuart Mill and Julian Huxley are two among the several philosophers and scientists who have published on the subject (1887-1975). The word "emergent" was first used in a text by the philosopher G. H. Lewes in 1875: Every outcome is either the sum or difference of the cooperating forces; the former in the case of similar directions and the latter in the case of opposite directions. Additionally, each consequence may be precisely traced back to its constituent parts since they are homogenous and comparable. Contrarily, with emergent, there is a cooperation between entities of different types rather than the addition of measurable motion onto measurable motion or persons of one kind to others of their kind. The emergent differs from its constituents in that they are incomparable and cannot be summed up or divided to produce the emergent.
We are talking against strong emergence.
popeye1945
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:06 pm To show this consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in terms of properties of parts if it is an emergent property. There must however be a reason that the system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function that describes the property of the system. The only available variables are however the properties of parts. Therefore the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence since the existence of the function implements that the property of the system is reducible to properties of parts.
With emergence, the property of the system is greater than the sum of its parts, in that something new arises, which belongs to no part in and of itself.
wtf
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by wtf »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 9:06 pm With emergence, the property of the system is greater than the sum of its parts, in that something new arises, which belongs to no part in and of itself.
Yes but isn't that either (a) trivial, or (b) a cop out?

For example if I make a fist with my fingers, you can't see any fist-ness in my fingers. So a fist is an emergent property of my fingers. Trivial.

And if you say that consciousness magically arises from a sufficiently complex pile of electronic circuits, that's a cop out. It sounds clever but explains exactly nothing.
popeye1945
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by popeye1945 »

wtf wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 9:35 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 9:06 pm With emergence, the property of the system is greater than the sum of its parts, in that something new arises, which belongs to no part in and of itself.
Yes, but isn't that either (a) trivial, or (b) a cop out?

For example, if I make a fist with my fingers, you can't see any fist-ness in my fingers. So, a fist is an emergent property of my fingers. Trivial.

And if you say that consciousness magically arises from a sufficiently complex pile of electronic circuits, that's a cop out. It sounds clever but explains exactly nothing.
You're working overtime to negate something that is self-evident. When something new arises out of the sum of the parts yet it is not a quality of any given part, that is emergence, the most obvious case, of course, is chemistry. Nothing new has arisen in the clenched fist, it's simply a function of the hand and it's a part not the totality of a system. I think quality proceeds function and it is the collect of the qualities of the part both for what they are in and of themselves and for what new quality arises out of the collective. Part to part, part to the whole and the whole to each of its parts.
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