There is no emergence

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:59 am Sounds like you believe in strong emergence to me then.
We don't know how electromagnetic fields are generated by charge and current but we know that there is a relation/function that dictates what the strength of electromagnetic fields should be given a specific amount of charge and current, so-called laws of nature. We simply don't know what the charge is.
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

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MagsJ wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:10 am
bahman wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:12 pm I am talking about the matter here that can be experienced by mind. The matter has specific properties. I am saying that emergence is impossible. You could however have hidden properties that get magnified and become evident when the matter has specific form, like the taste of salt. The reality is that all the properties of matter are intertwined too.
Tell that to the synesthetic, whom see greens and oranges in their greens and all manner of purples in their yellows, and thoughts and feelings in their minds-eye as cinematographic fact, ergo.. it’s all in one’s wiring.
Yes, minds in the brain are wired.
Last edited by bahman on Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

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Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:17 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:46 pm The brain (other minds) just generates qualia. The mind has the ability to cause quale.
That sounds like strong emergence. Unless all matter does this, and then just mentioning brains seems odd. Does a glass of milk generate qualia? for itself?
Matter is nothing more than mind and qualia. So yes, a glass of milk generates qualia too otherwise it could not interact with our minds indirectly.
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Re: There is no emergence

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bahman wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:52 pm Matter is nothing more than mind and qualia. So yes, a glass of milk generates qualia too otherwise it could not interact with our minds indirectly.
Matter is nothing more than mind and qualia. So, then, there is only mind and qualia. What is the mind that exists that is not qualia? Do you experience this mind?

A glass of milk generates qualia and this allow 'it' to interact with out minds indirectly. But there is only mind and qualia. What what is this milk that generates qualia? Isn't it qualia rather than something making qualia?
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

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Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am
bahman wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:52 pm Matter is nothing more than mind and qualia. So yes, a glass of milk generates qualia too otherwise it could not interact with our minds indirectly.
Matter is nothing more than mind and qualia. So, then, there is only mind and qualia. What is the mind that exists that is not qualia?
Mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience qualia, freely decide, and cause qualia. Quale is another substance, subject of experience and causation.
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am Do you experience this mind?
I cannot experience the mind directly but indirectly through the qualia that the mind produces.
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am A glass of milk generates qualia and this allow 'it' to interact with out minds indirectly. But there is only mind and qualia. What what is this milk that generates qualia?
It is the mind within milk that generate qualia.
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am Isn't it qualia rather than something making qualia?
Anything which is subject to change is contingent. You cannot have a contingent thing causing another one since this leads to a regress. Therefore, you need a noncontingent thing so-called mind.
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:41 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am
bahman wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:52 pm Matter is nothing more than mind and qualia. So yes, a glass of milk generates qualia too otherwise it could not interact with our minds indirectly.
Matter is nothing more than mind and qualia. So, then, there is only mind and qualia. What is the mind that exists that is not qualia?
Mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience qualia, freely decide, and cause qualia. Quale is another substance, subject of experience and causation.
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am Do you experience this mind?
I cannot experience the mind directly but indirectly through the qualia that the mind produces.
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am A glass of milk generates qualia and this allow 'it' to interact with out minds indirectly. But there is only mind and qualia. What what is this milk that generates qualia?
It is the mind within milk that generate qualia.
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am Isn't it qualia rather than something making qualia?
Anything which is subject to change is contingent. You cannot have a contingent thing causing another one since this leads to a regress. Therefore, you need a noncontingent thing so-called mind.
It all sounds fairly panpsychist, which is fine with me.
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

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Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:03 am
bahman wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:41 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am
Matter is nothing more than mind and qualia. So, then, there is only mind and qualia. What is the mind that exists that is not qualia?
Mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience qualia, freely decide, and cause qualia. Quale is another substance, subject of experience and causation.
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am Do you experience this mind?
I cannot experience the mind directly but indirectly through the qualia that the mind produces.
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am A glass of milk generates qualia and this allow 'it' to interact with out minds indirectly. But there is only mind and qualia. What what is this milk that generates qualia?
It is the mind within milk that generate qualia.
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am Isn't it qualia rather than something making qualia?
Anything which is subject to change is contingent. You cannot have a contingent thing causing another one since this leads to a regress. Therefore, you need a noncontingent thing so-called mind.
It all sounds fairly panpsychist, which is fine with me.
There are two substances, mind and qualia so, so we are dealing with substance dualism in which mind is primary and quale is secondary.
Dimebag
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Re: There is no emergence

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bahman wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:52 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:03 am
bahman wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:41 pm
Mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience qualia, freely decide, and cause qualia. Quale is another substance, subject of experience and causation.


I cannot experience the mind directly but indirectly through the qualia that the mind produces.


It is the mind within milk that generate qualia.


Anything which is subject to change is contingent. You cannot have a contingent thing causing another one since this leads to a regress. Therefore, you need a noncontingent thing so-called mind.
It all sounds fairly panpsychist, which is fine with me.
There are two substances, mind and qualia so, so we are dealing with substance dualism in which mind is primary and quale is secondary.
Can you imagine them being nondual? I.e., you have mind, which is subject, and quale, which is object, yet, subject is formless and object is form. What if quale were perturbations of mind. Sounds like there is potential there for nondual rather than dual substance.
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

Dimebag wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:48 am
bahman wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:52 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:03 am
It all sounds fairly panpsychist, which is fine with me.
There are two substances, mind and qualia so, so we are dealing with substance dualism in which mind is primary and quale is secondary.
Can you imagine them being nondual? I.e., you have mind, which is subject, and quale, which is object, yet, subject is formless and object is form.
I cannot follow you here. What do you mean that the mind is subject and quale is object?
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:03 am What if quale were perturbations of mind. Sounds like there is potential there for nondual rather than dual substance.
What do you mean with quale is perturbation of mind?
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Dimebag »

bahman wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:24 pm
Dimebag wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:48 am
bahman wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:52 pm
There are two substances, mind and qualia so, so we are dealing with substance dualism in which mind is primary and quale is secondary.
Can you imagine them being nondual? I.e., you have mind, which is subject, and quale, which is object, yet, subject is formless and object is form.
I cannot follow you here. What do you mean that the mind is subject and quale is object?
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:03 am What if quale were perturbations of mind. Sounds like there is potential there for nondual rather than dual substance.
What do you mean with quale is perturbation of mind?
From what I can gather, mind is the substance in which qualia are present. A kind of substrate. So, as with other substrates, the contents of them, in this case, qualia, is made up of that substrate.
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

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Dimebag wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:25 am
bahman wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:24 pm
Dimebag wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:48 am
Can you imagine them being nondual? I.e., you have mind, which is subject, and quale, which is object, yet, subject is formless and object is form.
I cannot follow you here. What do you mean that the mind is subject and quale is object?
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:03 am What if quale were perturbations of mind. Sounds like there is potential there for nondual rather than dual substance.
What do you mean with quale is perturbation of mind?
From what I can gather, mind is the substance in which qualia are present. A kind of substrate. So, as with other substrates, the contents of them, in this case, qualia, is made up of that substrate.
I cannot follow you here. Do you mind to elaborate?
seeds
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by seeds »

seeds wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:19 pm But I already argued against strong emergence in OP...
Actually, bahman, all you did in your OP is describe the elements of "weak emergence," while insisting (or at least, implying) that there is no such thing as "emergence" in any form.
bahman wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:48 pm No, actually what I showed is that all sorts of emergence are weak.
No, bahman, what you showed is that you don't seem to understand what "strong emergence" means.

That, and based on the fact that you just admitted that there are "...all sorts of emergence..." shows that you didn't give much critical thought to your thread title.
seeds wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:19 pm ...Moreover, the existence of phenomena such as free will, consciousness, etc. does not mean that we necessarily are dealing with strong emergence....
When something that we call "mind"...

(which is not only immaterial and un-measurable, but also contains a conscious [self-aware] agent who is in possession of free will)

...emerges from a measurable material substance in which no mind or self-aware (conscious) agent can be located, then, yes, we are indeed dealing with "strong emergence."
bahman wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:48 pm But the mind cannot emerge as a result of the matter process since the mind has free will therefore it is the uncaused cause.
I suggest that the creation of each (one-of-a-kind) human consciousness with its own centralized and self-aware agent (or "I Am-ness") is, indeed, achieved through the unique arrangement of brain matter.

I speculatively propose that the brain accomplishes this miraculous feat through some "mechanistic" means that somehow allows it to summon-forth the essence of life imbued within the very fabric of its own material makeup and then somehow causes that life essence to "focalize and awaken" into a new entity (a "soul") that is capable of surviving the death of the body and brain.

While, on the other hand, you seem to be implying that a human mind (again, a human "I Am-ness") already exists prior to this event, and that the brain has nothing to do with the literal creation of the human mind.

Am I reading you correctly on that point?
seeds wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:19 pm ...There are other models of mind such as dualism in which there are two substances qualia and mind,...
Generally speaking, "dualism" has to do with the difference between "mind" and "matter," not mind and qualia.
bahman wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:48 pm I am talking about another but right version of dualism.
I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of the word "qualia," for qualia and mind are far too closely related to be thought of as being a proper representation of "substance dualism"...
qualia
noun

PHILOSOPHY

the internal and subjective component of sense perceptions, arising from stimulation of the senses by phenomena.
In other words, you seem to be treating the word "qualia" as if it were a representation of "phenomena," or the actual phenomenal features of the universe (e.g., rocks, apples, French Horns, etc,), which it is not.

According to Wiki:
Examples of qualia include the perceived sensation of pain of a headache, the taste of wine, as well as the redness of an evening sky.
Again, "qualia" and "mind" are too closely related to be considered as being a good representation of "substance dualism."

I suggest you find something better than trying to contrast qualia with mind, for you are just adding unnecessary confusion to your argument.
bahman wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:48 pm The mind cannot be created or emerged...
Clearly, it can be created, as is witnessed thousands of times everyday when a new mind awakens (emerges) into existence through this event...

Image

The new mind (new "I Am-ness") that resides on the inside of that tiny skull is the ultimate example of "strong emergence."

Indeed, it is a representation of something that is "wholly other" than the material substance from which it emerged.
_______
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

seeds wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:26 pm
seeds wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:19 pm But I already argued against strong emergence in OP...
Actually, bahman, all you did in your OP is describe the elements of "weak emergence," while insisting (or at least, implying) that there is no such thing as "emergence" in any form.
bahman wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:48 pm No, actually what I showed is that all sorts of emergence are weak.
No, bahman, what you showed is that you don't seem to understand what "strong emergence" means.

That, and based on the fact that you just admitted that there are "...all sorts of emergence..." shows that you didn't give much critical thought to your thread title.
The thread title should be "There is no strong emergence". I already defined weak emergence in this thread several times: A weak emergence describes a situation in a system in which the properties of the system/whole are functions of the properties of parts. The strong emergence is the opposite: A strong emergence describes a situation in a system in which the properties of the system/whole are not functions of the properties of parts.
seeds wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:19 pm ...Moreover, the existence of phenomena such as free will, consciousness, etc. does not mean that we necessarily are dealing with strong emergence....
When something that we call "mind"...

(which is not only immaterial and un-measurable, but also contains a conscious [self-aware] agent who is in possession of free will)

...emerges from a measurable material substance in which no mind or self-aware (conscious) agent can be located, then, yes, we are indeed dealing with "strong emergence."
But I have shown in OP that all sorts of emergence are weak. Please help yourself and read and understand the argument. I would be happy to see your counter-argument.
seeds wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:48 pm But the mind cannot emerge as a result of the matter process since the mind has free will therefore it is the uncaused cause.
I suggest that the creation of each (one-of-a-kind) human consciousness with its own centralized and self-aware agent (or "I Am-ness") is, indeed, achieved through the unique arrangement of brain matter.
If the unique arrangement of matter gives rise to something then we are dealing with weak emergence.
seeds wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pm I speculatively propose that the brain accomplishes this miraculous feat through some "mechanistic" means that somehow allows it to summon-forth the essence of life imbued within the very fabric of its own material makeup and then somehow causes that life essence to "focalize and awaken" into a new entity (a "soul") that is capable of surviving the death of the body and brain.
But something that can be caused/created can be destroyed too. Moreover, how something, the soul, that its very existence depends on something else, the brain, could survive death?
seeds wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pm While, on the other hand, you seem to be implying that a human mind (again, a human "I Am-ness") already exists prior to this event, and that the brain has nothing to do with the literal creation of the human mind.

Am I reading you correctly on that point?
Yes.
seeds wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pm
seeds wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:19 pm ...There are other models of mind such as dualism in which there are two substances qualia and mind,...
Generally speaking, "dualism" has to do with the difference between "mind" and "matter," not mind and qualia.
bahman wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:48 pm I am talking about another but right version of dualism.
I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of the word "qualia," for qualia and mind are far too closely related to be thought of as being a proper representation of "substance dualism"...
qualia
noun

PHILOSOPHY

the internal and subjective component of sense perceptions, arising from stimulation of the senses by phenomena.
In other words, you seem to be treating the word "qualia" as if it were a representation of "phenomena," or the actual phenomenal features of the universe (e.g., rocks, apples, French Horns, etc,), which it is not.

According to Wiki:
Examples of qualia include the perceived sensation of pain of a headache, the taste of wine, as well as the redness of an evening sky.

Again, "qualia" and "mind" are too closely related to be considered as being a good representation of "substance dualism."

I suggest you find something better than trying to contrast qualia with mind, for you are just adding unnecessary confusion to your argument.
To me, the subject of experience, quale, is a substance created by minds. It should exist as a substance otherwise it could not be experienced given the definition of substance, substance is a thing that exists and has a set of properties. My definition is slightly different.
seeds wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pm
Clearly, it can be created, as is witnessed thousands of times everyday when a new mind awakens (emerges) into existence through this event...

Image

The new mind (new "I Am-ness") that resides on the inside of that tiny skull is the ultimate example of "strong emergence."

Indeed, it is a representation of something that is "wholly other" than the material substance from which it emerged.
_______
That is not a proof.
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:06 pm To show this consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in terms of properties of parts if it is an emergent property. There must however be a reason that the system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function that describes the property of the system. The only available variables are however the properties of parts. Therefore the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence since the existence of the function implements that the property of the system is reducible to properties of parts.
bahman,

The system is not reducible to the properties of the individual parts, it is but the chemistry of the mix which gives rise to an emergent quality/substance.
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:31 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:06 pm To show this consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in terms of properties of parts if it is an emergent property. There must however be a reason that the system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function that describes the property of the system. The only available variables are however the properties of parts. Therefore the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence since the existence of the function implements that the property of the system is reducible to properties of parts.
bahman,

The system is not reducible to the properties of the individual parts, it is but the chemistry of the mix which gives rise to an emergent quality/substance.
I would add, in relation to the part I bolded and underlined,
No, it is not the properties of the parts. It is the properties of the parts, plus whatever properties arise when they are in a system. They are in close relation. The structure is not just parts, it is parts plus structure or system.
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