There is no emergence

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Iwannaplato
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:30 pm Could you name a physical property of salt that is not a function of the properties of parts? I am not talking about taste or smell since there is a whole different mechanism that creates quale.
WEll, first off, I am not talking about the creation of the quale. I am talking about the physical effect on the taste bud. Sodium nor Chloride cause the taste but relevantly do not start the mechanism that leads to quales later on. Neither sodium nor chlorine gas will have trigger the taste bud response salt does. We don't have to care about later results in the brain. We are talking about a purely physical, non-quale effect on the taste buds, milliseconds before any quales are created. Sodium would burn the taste bud into dead matter. Likely Chloride would do the same. It is a completely different substance in terms of properties. It is edible. Can be used in the body for all sorts of functions that are absolutely not possible with Na or CL, an extremely volitile metal and a poison gas (at body temperatures). It forms stable crystals. When you add salt or sodium or chlorine to water you get different PH reactions. Physical results which in turn would have different results on things in the water. Salt making no change in the ph, but the other two, yes, changing the ph.
NaCl
Melting point 800.8° C (1,473.4° F)
Boiling point 1,465°C (2,669° F)
Hardness (Moh's Scale) 2.5
Critical humidity at 20 °C, (68° F) 75.3%

It's parts do not have the same numbers.
No.
Well, I can't argue with that. Since your atoms and cells can then communicate with you and me in English, could you link to some evidence they have these abilities. Ask them to participate. It must be hard to sleep. Given they can speak.
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 11:09 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:30 pm Could you name a physical property of salt that is not a function of the properties of parts? I am not talking about taste or smell since there is a whole different mechanism that creates quale.
WEll, first off, I am not talking about the creation of the quale. I am talking about the physical effect on the taste bud. Sodium nor Chloride cause the taste but relevantly do not start the mechanism that leads to quales later on. Neither sodium nor chlorine gas will have trigger the taste bud response salt does. We don't have to care about later results in the brain. We are talking about a purely physical, non-quale effect on the taste buds, milliseconds before any quales are created. Sodium would burn the taste bud into dead matter. Likely Chloride would do the same. It is a completely different substance in terms of properties. It is edible. Can be used in the body for all sorts of functions that are absolutely not possible with Na or CL, an extremely volitile metal and a poison gas (at body temperatures). It forms stable crystals. When you add salt or sodium or chlorine to water you get different PH reactions. Physical results which in turn would have different results on things in the water. Salt making no change in the ph, but the other two, yes, changing the ph.
NaCl
Melting point 800.8° C (1,473.4° F)
Boiling point 1,465°C (2,669° F)
Hardness (Moh's Scale) 2.5
Critical humidity at 20 °C, (68° F) 75.3%

It's parts do not have the same numbers.
I said the property of the whole is a function of properties of parts. I didn't say they are the same. Moreover, Chloride and Sodium are not elementary particles/parts. All the properties that you mentioned can be in fact calculated these days in terms of properties of parts.
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 11:09 pm
No.
Well, I can't argue with that. Since your atoms and cells can then communicate with you and me in English, could you link to some evidence they have these abilities. Ask them to participate. It must be hard to sleep. Given they can speak.
Atoms and cells are not parts of the system. They are subsystems themselves.
Iwannaplato
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:10 pm
I said the property of the whole is a function of properties of parts. I didn't say they are the same. Moreover, Chloride and Sodium are not elementary particles/parts. All the properties that you mentioned can be in fact calculated these days in terms of properties of parts.
Let's say that's true. That doesn't mean that they are properties of the parts. It just means it can be calculated. In fact we know there is a difference since the parts do not have those properties.

Atoms and cells are not parts of the system. They are subsystems themselves.
Those are not mutually exclusive terms. If they were, then nothing has parts. Name a part that isn't a subsystem.
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:33 pm
bahman wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:10 pm
I said the property of the whole is a function of properties of parts. I didn't say they are the same. Moreover, Chloride and Sodium are not elementary particles/parts. All the properties that you mentioned can be in fact calculated these days in terms of properties of parts.
Let's say that's true. That doesn't mean that they are properties of the parts. It just means it can be calculated. In fact we know there is a difference since the parts do not have those properties.
Calculable means that there exists a function that the property of the whole can be calculated from in terms of properties of parts.
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:33 pm
Atoms and cells are not parts of the system. They are subsystems themselves.
Those are not mutually exclusive terms. If they were, then nothing has parts. Name a part that isn't a subsystem.
Electron, quark, etc.
Iwannaplato
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Iwannaplato »

bahman wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:40 pm Calculable means that there exists a function that the property of the whole can be calculated from in terms of properties of parts.
That doesn't mean the parts have the properties.
Electron, quark, etc.
1) you have referred to minds as having parts and mentioned other minds such as subconscious minds. But those are systems. So, as I said parts are generally systems, in your estimation. So, as I said they are not mutually exclusive. In my estimation all things are systems, but my point was that the terms are not mutually exclusive, which they are not. Further all the topics I have seen you raise about minds, when you mention parts they are OBVIOUSLY SYSTEMS. So, I truly do not understand why you didn't acknowledge the terms are not mutually exclusive instead of trying to find examples not mentioned, say, in the mind threads. I don't even think you found exceptions, but if you did, it seems disingenous since exceptions do not demonstrate mutual exclusion 2) Electrons must be in dynamic relations with Higgs fields to have mass and be parts of anything larger. So it is a system, in terms of being a part of anything like and atom, molecule, cell, person. 2) In particle physics, preons are point particles, conceived of as sub-components of quarks and leptons.[1] And electrons are a kind of lepton. So, sorry, those are not irreducible particles. 4) and then there is the particle/wave duality which encompasses all these guys.
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:59 pm
bahman wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:40 pm Calculable means that there exists a function that the property of the whole can be calculated from in terms of properties of parts.
That doesn't mean the parts have the properties.
If the parts do not have any property then you can exclude them.
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:59 pm
Electron, quark, etc.
1) you have referred to minds as having parts and mentioned other minds such as subconscious minds. But those are systems. So, as I said parts are generally systems, in your estimation. So, as I said they are not mutually exclusive. In my estimation all things are systems, but my point was that the terms are not mutually exclusive, which they are not. Further all the topics I have seen you raise about minds, when you mention parts they are OBVIOUSLY SYSTEMS. So, I truly do not understand why you didn't acknowledge the terms are not mutually exclusive instead of trying to find examples not mentioned, say, in the mind threads. I don't even think you found exceptions, but if you did, it seems disingenous since exceptions do not demonstrate mutual exclusion
The mind is an irreducible substance so it does not have parts.
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:59 pm 2) Electrons must be in dynamic relations with Higgs fields to have mass and be parts of anything larger. So it is a system, in terms of being a part of anything like and atom, molecule, cell, person.
Yes, but we don't need to do the high-energy calculations to see that salt is transparent or it melts in a certain degree.
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:59 pm 2) In particle physics, preons are point particles, conceived of as sub-components of quarks and leptons.[1] And electrons are a kind of lepton. So, sorry, those are not irreducible particles.
Again, you don't need to do high-energy assumptions in order to calculate the properties of salt. In some filed of physics, you use approximation.
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:59 pm 4) and then there is the particle/wave duality which encompasses all these guys.
I believe in Bohm's interpretation.
DiogenesMota
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by DiogenesMota »

What are properties, systems, knowledge, concepts, processes, theories and models outside the realm of the mind? Whatever access we have to reality is bound by the models the mind makes out of it (including our brains). The main issue in this board is that there seemly is a lot of scientific realists and materialists arguing about reality while borrowing a lot of things (as aforementioned) from outside the materialist framework, taking the interface we use to browse reality as if it (miraculously) mirrored it somehow.

About the topic, emergence as many are evaluating here is not something that is really bringing new properties into reality. Some examples were given here such as books or engines, but all the physical properties we apprehend from them are reducible to its atomic components and properties (motion, position, speed, mass, spin, charge, force and few others). The intentional properties, on the other hand, presuppose (or are grounded in) the mind, such as the knowledge obtained from a book, the convenience of travelling faster to arrive at a desired place, or the less work exerted at any job because a machine is assisting in the process, and presupposing a strong emergence is happening in these cases is just begging the question when related to the defence of the mind as an emergent process.
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MagsJ
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Re: There is no emergence

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bahman wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:49 pm
MagsJ wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:10 am
bahman wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:12 pm I am talking about the matter here that can be experienced by mind. The matter has specific properties. I am saying that emergence is impossible. You could however have hidden properties that get magnified and become evident when the matter has specific form, like the taste of salt. The reality is that all the properties of matter are intertwined too.
Tell that to the synesthetic, whom see greens and oranges in their greens and all manner of purples in their yellows, and thoughts and feelings in their minds-eye as cinematographic fact, ergo.. it’s all in one’s wiring.
Yes, minds in the brain are wired.
Wired differently.

I experience the world differently to/than others.. some do some don’t / swings and roundabouts.

What was your point here? you didn’t state one!
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

MagsJ wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:44 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:49 pm
MagsJ wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:10 am
Tell that to the synesthetic, whom see greens and oranges in their greens and all manner of purples in their yellows, and thoughts and feelings in their minds-eye as cinematographic fact, ergo.. it’s all in one’s wiring.
Yes, minds in the brain are wired.
Wired differently.

I experience the world differently to/than others.. some do some don’t / swings and roundabouts.

What was your point here? you didn’t state one!
I mean, the brain is a set of minds that are wired together. The main duty of the brain is to create qualia that are experienced by the conscious mind, the main mind.
popeye1945
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:06 pm To show this consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in terms of properties of parts if it is an emergent property. There must however be a reason that the system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function that describes the property of the system. The only available variables are however the properties of parts. Therefore the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence since the existence of the function implements that the property of the system is reducible to properties of parts.
bahman.

As surely as there is dissolution there is emergence as energy ever-changing in form.
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

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popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:33 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:06 pm To show this consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in terms of properties of parts if it is an emergent property. There must however be a reason that the system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function that describes the property of the system. The only available variables are however the properties of parts. Therefore the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence since the existence of the function implements that the property of the system is reducible to properties of parts.
bahman.

As surely as there is dissolution there is emergence as energy ever-changing in form.
What do you mean?
popeye1945
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman.

As surely as there is dissolution there is emergence as energy ever-changing in form.
[/quote]

What do you mean?
[/quote]

bahman,
Well it is all energy, there really is nothing else what is termed dissolution is simply an energy-changing form. I am no physicist but, most people when they talk of emergence are talking about systems/objects arising from the interactions of parts or substances in reaction to each other, the emergent property/system/object not being that of its individual parts. It seems apparent now with the new findings of physics that as Einstein stated, "Reality is an illusion though a persistent one." That means that ultimate reality is a place of no things because there is nothing but energy. The world as object is a relational condition, objects being biological reactions to a myriad of energy types some perceived some, not . The old statement subject and object can never be divided is truer than ever, for reality itself is an emergent quality known only to biological consciousness, it otherwise does not exist. Reality is a product of the flesh in reactive emergence to the energies of the cosmos.
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:13 pm bahman,
Well it is all energy, there really is nothing else what is termed dissolution is simply an energy-changing form. I am no physicist but, most people when they talk of emergence are talking about systems/objects arising from the interactions of parts or substances in reaction to each other, the emergent property/system/object not being that of its individual parts. It seems apparent now with the new findings of physics that as Einstein stated, "Reality is an illusion though a persistent one." That means that ultimate reality is a place of no things because there is nothing but energy. The world as object is a relational condition, objects being biological reactions to a myriad of energy types some perceived some, not . The old statement subject and object can never be divided is truer than ever, for reality itself is an emergent quality known only to biological consciousness, it otherwise does not exist. Reality is a product of the flesh in reactive emergence to the energies of the cosmos.
Matter and energy are reducible substances by which I mean that they can be created or destroyed by the mind. Here, I am discussing that unconscious or mindless matter cannot become conscious or mindful given a configuration, what happens in the brain for example.
popeye1945
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman,

I'll be listening! What science is this based upon?
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bahman
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:28 pm bahman,

I'll be listening! What science is this based upon?
This is not science but a logical argument. Do you understand my argument? Do you see any flaw in it?
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