Do you experience time when there is no change?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Sculptor
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Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by Sculptor » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:36 pm

Do you experience time when there is no change?

There is no time when you do not experience change.
Your blood moves oxygen around the body with the beating of the heart, else you are dead.
In a sense, no time is experienced if you are dead. But I am given to understand that the death of one person does not seem to affect the passage of time.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:40 pm

bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:04 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:27 am
bahman wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:10 pm

Time is an entity that allows change to occur. Time has to exist exactly because of the fact that two and more states cannot coexist together.
So in the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg: the chicken with an egg inside of it is false?
Time has to exist in order to allow that change to happen, nothing to something.
So nothing then something. If there is nothing then there is something, it is instantaneous. We only know of time as the relation of somethings. Time is just ratios.

Age
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Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by Age » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am

bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:27 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:13 pm

Time is elementary. It simply exists such as other elementary things.
You can KEEP INSISTING 'time' is some actually thing BUT if you NEVER tell us what that thing actually IS, then REALLY what are you saying exactly?
Time is a fundamental entity with the following properties: It exists at an infinitesimal interval so-called now, It changes, it allows change to occurs.
So, you are saying the THING that allows change to occur actually changes itself also anyway, correct?

'God' can also be expressed as a 'fundamental entity', with the following properties: It exists, at an infinitesimal interval so-called now. It changes, and It allows change to occur. But NO one is wiser nor closer to understanding what it IS that you are actually talking about.

In other words, What is 'time'?

If you can NOT define it and can NOT explain it, then that would infer that it is NOTHING more than just some conception you have, and thus NOT some REAL actual existing THING.

You can for the rest of your life keep insisting that 'time' exists, and that 'time' changes, and that 'time' allows change to occur, but your insistence does NOT mean that 'time' is some actual REAL THING.

To me, 'time' is some actual REAL THING as 'time' is just the name or label used when 'you', human beings, take measurements between two perceived different events or points. BUT, 'time' is NOTHING else than that.
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:27 pm
What does " 'time' is 'elementary' " actually mean, to you?
It means that it is not made of something else. It simply exists.
Is this like 'fairies in the garden' are not made of something else, they just simply exist, to some people?
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:27 pm
And, IF 'time' simply exists such as other elementary things, then what elementary thing is 'time' exactly?
Time is an entity that allows change to occur.
You have told us a few times now that 'time' is an 'entity', AND, I have asked you a few times now to tell us what this 'entity' actually IS.
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Change means that one state of affair turns into another state of affair.
Besides the fact you keep repeating this, and I have told you to explain what 'affair' means in relation to this, I do NOT think you will find disagreement that CHANGE occurs with any one here, in this forum.

What I am trying to UNDERSTAND is what is 'time' exactly, because you keep insisting that 'time' is some thing that exists and which change could NOT occur without this THING called 'time', then that implies you KNOW what 'time' actually IS. So, why do you NOT just tell us what 'time' IS? Saying 'time' is an 'entity' says and means NOTHING at all, well to me anyway.

For example, some people keep insisting that 'God' is an entity, which exists, and which allows other things to occur. BUT, if these people who INSIST that they KNOW this do NOT explain what 'God', Itself, actually IS, then, to me, they really are saying NOTHING at all. Other than just expressing their own personal BELIEFS, which they obviously can NOT justify NOR prove is true, right, nor correct.
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:27 pm
If you do NOT answer these clarifying questions, then you are only delaying the inevitable.
I hope things are more clear now.
In NO way at all are things more clear now.

What is as clear to me now as it was from the very outset of this discussion with you IS you really do NOT know what you are talking about.

To me, what is clear is you have a BELIEF, and you will 'try' almost any thing to "justify" that BELIEF. Even if the BELIEF could NEVER be Truly justified you will still 'try' your hardest to.
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:27 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:13 pm

The measure of change is speed, not time.
Are you saying a clock and watch measure speed?
What we experience on a clock is motion in two states of affair. A system simply changes. Time, however, cannot be measured by any instrument since there is no way that an instrument can interact with time.
Could this be because there is NO such THING as 'time', itself?
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:27 pm
If yes, then okay.

If no, then what are you 'trying to' say?

How about you first TELL US what exactly is 'time', and then proceed from there?

If you can NOT explain what 'time' IS exactly, then that say more about what 'time' is NOT.

Also, and by the way, you somehow mixed what I have said and mis/quoted that to that one known as "commonsense", so I fixed this up.
Time is an entity that allows change to occur. It is this thing which I am describing.
LOL

"good" 'TRY' but it is just NOT working.

'God' is an entity that allows creation to occur. 'God' is this thing which I am describing. So, do you now KNOW what 'God' IS?

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bahman
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Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by bahman » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:54 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:40 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:04 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:27 am

So in the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg: the chicken with an egg inside of it is false?
Time has to exist in order to allow that change to happen, nothing to something.
So nothing then something. If there is nothing then there is something, it is instantaneous.
It takes infinitesimal amount of time to reach from nothing to something. This process, nothing to something, has to have a duration, infinitesimal.
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:40 pm
We only know of time as the relation of somethings. Time is just ratios.
Time is a separate entity from other things we experience.

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bahman
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Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by bahman » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:27 pm

You can KEEP INSISTING 'time' is some actually thing BUT if you NEVER tell us what that thing actually IS, then REALLY what are you saying exactly?
Time is a fundamental entity with the following properties: It exists at an infinitesimal interval so-called now, It changes, it allows change to occurs.
So, you are saying the THING that allows change to occur actually changes itself also anyway, correct?
Yes.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
'God' can also be expressed as a 'fundamental entity', with the following properties: It exists, at an infinitesimal interval so-called now. It changes, and It allows change to occur. But NO one is wiser nor closer to understanding what it IS that you are actually talking about.
Everything changes at now. God also is subject to time.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
In other words, What is 'time'?
Can you tell me what an electron is? Electron is an entity with the specific properties. The same applies to time. Time is an entity with the specific properties, as it stated several times.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
If you can NOT define it and can NOT explain it, then that would infer that it is NOTHING more than just some conception you have, and thus NOT some REAL actual existing THING.
What do you want me to explain?
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
You can for the rest of your life keep insisting that 'time' exists, and that 'time' changes, and that 'time' allows change to occur, but your insistence does NOT mean that 'time' is some actual REAL THING.

To me, 'time' is some actual REAL THING as 'time' is just the name or label used when 'you', human beings, take measurements between two perceived different events or points. BUT, 'time' is NOTHING else than that.
Where are two points located? Is a duration for reaching from one point to another point?
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:27 pm
What does " 'time' is 'elementary' " actually mean, to you?
It means that it is not made of something else. It simply exists.
Is this like 'fairies in the garden' are not made of something else, they just simply exist, to some people?
No, it is like electron, quarks, etc.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:27 pm
And, IF 'time' simply exists such as other elementary things, then what elementary thing is 'time' exactly?
Time is an entity that allows change to occur.
You have told us a few times now that 'time' is an 'entity', AND, I have asked you a few times now to tell us what this 'entity' actually IS.
What do you mean with what? What is your answer when I ask what is an electron?
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Change means that one state of affair turns into another state of affair.
Besides the fact you keep repeating this, and I have told you to explain what 'affair' means in relation to this, I do NOT think you will find disagreement that CHANGE occurs with any one here, in this forum.

What I am trying to UNDERSTAND is what is 'time' exactly, because you keep insisting that 'time' is some thing that exists and which change could NOT occur without this THING called 'time', then that implies you KNOW what 'time' actually IS. So, why do you NOT just tell us what 'time' IS? Saying 'time' is an 'entity' says and means NOTHING at all, well to me anyway.

For example, some people keep insisting that 'God' is an entity, which exists, and which allows other things to occur. BUT, if these people who INSIST that they KNOW this do NOT explain what 'God', Itself, actually IS, then, to me, they really are saying NOTHING at all. Other than just expressing their own personal BELIEFS, which they obviously can NOT justify NOR prove is true, right, nor correct.
You need to tell me what do you mean with "what is time?"
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:27 pm

Are you saying a clock and watch measure speed?
What we experience on a clock is motion in two states of affair. A system simply changes. Time, however, cannot be measured by any instrument since there is no way that an instrument can interact with time.
Could this be because there is NO such THING as 'time', itself?
No. Time is not similar to any other thing that you know, electron for example.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:27 pm
If yes, then okay.

If no, then what are you 'trying to' say?

How about you first TELL US what exactly is 'time', and then proceed from there?

If you can NOT explain what 'time' IS exactly, then that say more about what 'time' is NOT.

Also, and by the way, you somehow mixed what I have said and mis/quoted that to that one known as "commonsense", so I fixed this up.
Time is an entity that allows change to occur. It is this thing which I am describing.
LOL

"good" 'TRY' but it is just NOT working.

'God' is an entity that allows creation to occur. 'God' is this thing which I am describing. So, do you now KNOW what 'God' IS?
God, Itself is subject to time if there is any.

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bahman
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Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by bahman » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:26 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:36 pm
Do you experience time when there is no change?

There is no time when you do not experience change.
Your blood moves oxygen around the body with the beating of the heart, else you are dead.
In a sense, no time is experienced if you are dead. But I am given to understand that the death of one person does not seem to affect the passage of time.
What is the difference between the state of anesthesia and the state in which you are waiting while nothing happens?

Age
Posts: 3323
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by Age » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:05 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm

Time is a fundamental entity with the following properties: It exists at an infinitesimal interval so-called now, It changes, it allows change to occurs.
So, you are saying the THING that allows change to occur actually changes itself also anyway, correct?
Yes.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
'God' can also be expressed as a 'fundamental entity', with the following properties: It exists, at an infinitesimal interval so-called now. It changes, and It allows change to occur. But NO one is wiser nor closer to understanding what it IS that you are actually talking about.
Everything changes at now. God also is subject to time.
Do you purposely mean to come across as COMPLETELY and UTTERLY NOT understanding any thing at all about what it is that I am pointing out?

So, now I have to ask you what is this 'God' thing?

Is it any thing like this 'time' thing, which you talk about but are completely AND utterly unable to explain, describe, and define?
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
In other words, What is 'time'?
Can you tell me what an electron is?
If I was asserting that I KNEW what it was and what it did, then YES I would be able to tell you what an electron IS.

However, I do NOT like to go and assert things that I am unable to explain, describe, nor define, therefore I do NOT do that.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Electron is an entity with the specific properties. The same applies to time. Time is an entity with the specific properties, as it stated several times.
And LOL this is way beyond any kind of joke now.

What it appears that you are REALLY asserting now IS, to you, 'time' is some thing but in all truth you have absolutely NO idea what it even could be, let alone what 'time' IS, correct?
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
If you can NOT define it and can NOT explain it, then that would infer that it is NOTHING more than just some conception you have, and thus NOT some REAL actual existing THING.
What do you want me to explain?
What you assert is TRUE and REAL.

If you want to propose that you KNOW some thing, then I want to be at least able to explain what it is that you are proposing.

What else could you think I wanted you to explain?

You ASSERT 'time' is a real THING. So, I WANT you to explain what 'time' IS.

I thought the question I posed to you which was; What is 'time', exactly? might have given you a clue as to what I WANT you to explain, exactly.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
You can for the rest of your life keep insisting that 'time' exists, and that 'time' changes, and that 'time' allows change to occur, but your insistence does NOT mean that 'time' is some actual REAL THING.

To me, 'time' is some actual REAL THING as 'time' is just the name or label used when 'you', human beings, take measurements between two perceived different events or points. BUT, 'time' is NOTHING else than that.
Where are two points located?
Wherever 'you', the human being, places them
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Is a duration for reaching from one point to another point?
The question does not appear, to me anyway, as though it is asking some thing fully.

To me, a 'duration' is the measured distance between two points. For example, the answer to the question; How long did it take to get from one named "point" to another named "point"? would be the 'duration'.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm

It means that it is not made of something else. It simply exists.
Is this like 'fairies in the garden' are not made of something else, they just simply exist, to some people?
No, it is like electron, quarks, etc.
I think you might find this is a little bit different as electrons, quarks, et cetera can be observed or measured with tools, whereas, to me 'time' can not be observed nor measured with tools, as it is the actually measuring of things, taken from tools, clocks, watches, et cetera, which is what the word 'time' relates to and/or defines.

What does 'time', to you, actually look like when observed or measured?
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm

Time is an entity that allows change to occur.
You have told us a few times now that 'time' is an 'entity', AND, I have asked you a few times now to tell us what this 'entity' actually IS.
What do you mean with what?
I NEVER said any thing about "with what".

But if you want to KNOW what I want you tell us 'with', then I suggest 'with' those fingers on a keypad.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
What is your answer when I ask what is an electron?
The same as I gave you before. I am NOT even asserting an electron exists, therefore I do NOT have to KNOW what an electron IS exactly. But if I did WANT to know, and/or did then want to share the answer with you, then I would look up some scientific literature to find the answer.

Is there ANY scientific literature that actually explains what 'time' IS exactly?

If no, then WHY do you say that 'time' is an 'entity'?

If yes, then WHY do you NOT just read that "scientific literature", and then tell us what 'time' actually IS?
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm
Change means that one state of affair turns into another state of affair.
Besides the fact you keep repeating this, and I have told you to explain what 'affair' means in relation to this, I do NOT think you will find disagreement that CHANGE occurs with any one here, in this forum.

What I am trying to UNDERSTAND is what is 'time' exactly, because you keep insisting that 'time' is some thing that exists and which change could NOT occur without this THING called 'time', then that implies you KNOW what 'time' actually IS. So, why do you NOT just tell us what 'time' IS? Saying 'time' is an 'entity' says and means NOTHING at all, well to me anyway.

For example, some people keep insisting that 'God' is an entity, which exists, and which allows other things to occur. BUT, if these people who INSIST that they KNOW this do NOT explain what 'God', Itself, actually IS, then, to me, they really are saying NOTHING at all. Other than just expressing their own personal BELIEFS, which they obviously can NOT justify NOR prove is true, right, nor correct.
You need to tell me what do you mean with "what is time?"
Okay. But why do I 'NEED TO'?

If we have to go backwards to the very beginning of learning how to understand what it is that "another" person is saying, then, when an adult human being like yourself starts telling us, still learning and less knowing ones, that either 'time' exists or that 'God' exists, then us, who are still inquisitive and OPEN, tend to wonder; What is this 'thing' actually that these older human beings tell us exist but can NOT tell us what 'it' IS actually. So, what we, of the lesser knowledgeable do, is to ask 'you', of the older age, What is this 'thing' [either 'time' or 'God'] in which you speak of. This is like if you were to tell us about a 'tree' or a 'sailing' ship, and we had not yet had any experience at all of either. We would say some thing like; What is a 'tree'? Or, What is a sailing 'ship'? And then, if you actually KNEW what you were actually talking about, either through observations and/or experiences, then you would, hopefully, explain what you KNEW to us. But, if you did NOT because either you could NOT or just would NOT, then we become VERY DISINTERESTED in what you are saying, and usually just give up listening to you, which is what I USED TO DO.

I, however, now like to POINT OUT and SHOW the inconsistencies of what 'you', human beings, who say, or make out, that you actually KNOW some thing as well as ask you to CLARIFY what you actually ASSERT is the truth. I do this because then either I LEARN more and/or anew. I either LEARN that what I thought was right is actually wrong OR I LEARN that what I think is right might even be MORE right now.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm

What we experience on a clock is motion in two states of affair. A system simply changes. Time, however, cannot be measured by any instrument since there is no way that an instrument can interact with time.
Could this be because there is NO such THING as 'time', itself?
No. Time is not similar to any other thing that you know, electron for example.
HOW would you KNOW what I "know", AND that 'time' is NOT similar to ANY of those things.

You are just appearing to say more absurd things now, in order to just STICK to what you ALREADY BELIEVE is the Truth of things.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:02 pm

Time is an entity that allows change to occur. It is this thing which I am describing.
LOL

"good" 'TRY' but it is just NOT working.

'God' is an entity that allows creation to occur. 'God' is this thing which I am describing. So, do you now KNOW what 'God' IS?
God, Itself is subject to time if there is any.
LOL you will NOT stop 'trying', will you?

1. You did NOT answer the ACTUAL clarifying question.
2. HOW do you KNOW 'God', Itself is "subject to time"?
3. When you say, "if there is any", then are you referring to 'time' or to 'God'?

And of course there is a 'God'. It is an entity, that creates. It is 'this' THING, which I am describing.
Therefore, 'It' MUST BE TRUE.

Surely you can SEE and UNDERSTAND this?

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bahman
Posts: 2432
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Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by bahman » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:05 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am

So, you are saying the THING that allows change to occur actually changes itself also anyway, correct?
Yes.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
'God' can also be expressed as a 'fundamental entity', with the following properties: It exists, at an infinitesimal interval so-called now. It changes, and It allows change to occur. But NO one is wiser nor closer to understanding what it IS that you are actually talking about.
Everything changes at now. God also is subject to time.
Do you purposely mean to come across as COMPLETELY and UTTERLY NOT understanding any thing at all about what it is that I am pointing out?
Yes. I understand what you are trying to say.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
So, now I have to ask you what is this 'God' thing?
The creator of everything by definition.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
Is it any thing like this 'time' thing, which you talk about but are completely AND utterly unable to explain, describe, and define?
This question to explain what an elementary thing is completely irrelevant. A elementary thing simply is.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
In other words, What is 'time'?
Can you tell me what an electron is?
If I was asserting that I KNEW what it was and what it did, then YES I would be able to tell you what an electron IS.

However, I do NOT like to go and assert things that I am unable to explain, describe, nor define, therefore I do NOT do that.
Is there anything that you can explain?
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Electron is an entity with the specific properties. The same applies to time. Time is an entity with the specific properties, as it stated several times.
And LOL this is way beyond any kind of joke now.

What it appears that you are REALLY asserting now IS, to you, 'time' is some thing but in all truth you have absolutely NO idea what it even could be, let alone what 'time' IS, correct?
No.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
If you can NOT define it and can NOT explain it, then that would infer that it is NOTHING more than just some conception you have, and thus NOT some REAL actual existing THING.
What do you want me to explain?
What you assert is TRUE and REAL.

If you want to propose that you KNOW some thing, then I want to be at least able to explain what it is that you are proposing.

What else could you think I wanted you to explain?

You ASSERT 'time' is a real THING. So, I WANT you to explain what 'time' IS.

I thought the question I posed to you which was; What is 'time', exactly? might have given you a clue as to what I WANT you to explain, exactly.
No, I have no clue what you are looking for. You cannot explain what an elementary thing is. It simply exists. It is not made of anything.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
You can for the rest of your life keep insisting that 'time' exists, and that 'time' changes, and that 'time' allows change to occur, but your insistence does NOT mean that 'time' is some actual REAL THING.

To me, 'time' is some actual REAL THING as 'time' is just the name or label used when 'you', human beings, take measurements between two perceived different events or points. BUT, 'time' is NOTHING else than that.
Where are two points located?
Wherever 'you', the human being, places them
Where do you place them?
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Is a duration for reaching from one point to another point?
The question does not appear, to me anyway, as though it is asking some thing fully.

To me, a 'duration' is the measured distance between two points. For example, the answer to the question; How long did it take to get from one named "point" to another named "point"? would be the 'duration'.
No, we have distance between two points and duration that it takes to go from one point to another. You can travel slow or fast. You experience that duration changes accordingly while distance is constant.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
Is this like 'fairies in the garden' are not made of something else, they just simply exist, to some people?
No, it is like electron, quarks, etc.
I think you might find this is a little bit different as electrons, quarks, et cetera can be observed or measured with tools, whereas, to me 'time' can not be observed nor measured with tools, as it is the actually measuring of things, taken from tools, clocks, watches, et cetera, which is what the word 'time' relates to and/or defines.

What does 'time', to you, actually look like when observed or measured?
I experience time.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am

You have told us a few times now that 'time' is an 'entity', AND, I have asked you a few times now to tell us what this 'entity' actually IS.
What do you mean with what?
I NEVER said any thing about "with what".

But if you want to KNOW what I want you tell us 'with', then I suggest 'with' those fingers on a keypad.
What do you want?
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
What is your answer when I ask what is an electron?
The same as I gave you before. I am NOT even asserting an electron exists, therefore I do NOT have to KNOW what an electron IS exactly. But if I did WANT to know, and/or did then want to share the answer with you, then I would look up some scientific literature to find the answer.

Is there ANY scientific literature that actually explains what 'time' IS exactly?

If no, then WHY do you say that 'time' is an 'entity'?

If yes, then WHY do you NOT just read that "scientific literature", and then tell us what 'time' actually IS?
I am a scientist. I know what I am talking about.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
Besides the fact you keep repeating this, and I have told you to explain what 'affair' means in relation to this, I do NOT think you will find disagreement that CHANGE occurs with any one here, in this forum.

What I am trying to UNDERSTAND is what is 'time' exactly, because you keep insisting that 'time' is some thing that exists and which change could NOT occur without this THING called 'time', then that implies you KNOW what 'time' actually IS. So, why do you NOT just tell us what 'time' IS? Saying 'time' is an 'entity' says and means NOTHING at all, well to me anyway.

For example, some people keep insisting that 'God' is an entity, which exists, and which allows other things to occur. BUT, if these people who INSIST that they KNOW this do NOT explain what 'God', Itself, actually IS, then, to me, they really are saying NOTHING at all. Other than just expressing their own personal BELIEFS, which they obviously can NOT justify NOR prove is true, right, nor correct.
You need to tell me what do you mean with "what is time?"
Okay. But why do I 'NEED TO'?

If we have to go backwards to the very beginning of learning how to understand what it is that "another" person is saying, then, when an adult human being like yourself starts telling us, still learning and less knowing ones, that either 'time' exists or that 'God' exists, then us, who are still inquisitive and OPEN, tend to wonder; What is this 'thing' actually that these older human beings tell us exist but can NOT tell us what 'it' IS actually. So, what we, of the lesser knowledgeable do, is to ask 'you', of the older age, What is this 'thing' [either 'time' or 'God'] in which you speak of. This is like if you were to tell us about a 'tree' or a 'sailing' ship, and we had not yet had any experience at all of either. We would say some thing like; What is a 'tree'? Or, What is a sailing 'ship'? And then, if you actually KNEW what you were actually talking about, either through observations and/or experiences, then you would, hopefully, explain what you KNEW to us. But, if you did NOT because either you could NOT or just would NOT, then we become VERY DISINTERESTED in what you are saying, and usually just give up listening to you, which is what I USED TO DO.

I, however, now like to POINT OUT and SHOW the inconsistencies of what 'you', human beings, who say, or make out, that you actually KNOW some thing as well as ask you to CLARIFY what you actually ASSERT is the truth. I do this because then either I LEARN more and/or anew. I either LEARN that what I thought was right is actually wrong OR I LEARN that what I think is right might even be MORE right now.
What is a tree? Please don't tell me that you cannot explain anything.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am

Could this be because there is NO such THING as 'time', itself?
No. Time is not similar to any other thing that you know, electron for example.
HOW would you KNOW what I "know", AND that 'time' is NOT similar to ANY of those things.

You are just appearing to say more absurd things now, in order to just STICK to what you ALREADY BELIEVE is the Truth of things.
Whatever. You already say that you are not listening to what I am saying.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am

LOL

"good" 'TRY' but it is just NOT working.

'God' is an entity that allows creation to occur. 'God' is this thing which I am describing. So, do you now KNOW what 'God' IS?
God, Itself is subject to time if there is any.
LOL you will NOT stop 'trying', will you?

1. You did NOT answer the ACTUAL clarifying question.
2. HOW do you KNOW 'God', Itself is "subject to time"?
Because there are two states in which God exists within, God only and God and the creation. There should be a duration between two states of affair, therefore God is subjected to time.
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
3. When you say, "if there is any", then are you referring to 'time' or to 'God'?
God.

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Sculptor
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Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by Sculptor » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:52 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:26 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:36 pm
Do you experience time when there is no change?

There is no time when you do not experience change.
Your blood moves oxygen around the body with the beating of the heart, else you are dead.
In a sense, no time is experienced if you are dead. But I am given to understand that the death of one person does not seem to affect the passage of time.
What is the difference between the state of anesthesia and the state in which you are waiting while nothing happens?
There is no state in any circumstances when "nothing happens".

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:18 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:54 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:40 pm
bahman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:04 pm

Time has to exist in order to allow that change to happen, nothing to something.
So nothing then something. If there is nothing then there is something, it is instantaneous.
It takes infinitesimal amount of time to reach from nothing to something. This process, nothing to something, has to have a duration, infinitesimal.

Infinitesimal is still a something.

If I have an infinitesimal of .000 000 000 000 000 000 001

It is still much greater than the infinitesimal of:
.000 000 000 000 000 000 001 000 000 000 000 000 001

I can have an infinitesimal line that is infinitely larger than another infinitesimal
Line they both would appear as points.


Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:40 pm
We only know of time as the relation of somethings. Time is just ratios.
Time is a separate entity from other things we experience.

How so if we experience things through it?

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bahman
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Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by bahman » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:49 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:52 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:26 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:36 pm
Do you experience time when there is no change?

There is no time when you do not experience change.
Your blood moves oxygen around the body with the beating of the heart, else you are dead.
In a sense, no time is experienced if you are dead. But I am given to understand that the death of one person does not seem to affect the passage of time.
What is the difference between the state of anesthesia and the state in which you are waiting while nothing happens?
There is no state in any circumstances when "nothing happens".
Have you ever been waiting in a doctor's office?

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bahman
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Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by bahman » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:06 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:18 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:54 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:40 pm
So nothing then something. If there is nothing then there is something, it is instantaneous.
It takes infinitesimal amount of time to reach from nothing to something. This process, nothing to something, has to have a duration, infinitesimal.

Infinitesimal is still a something.

If I have an infinitesimal of .000 000 000 000 000 000 001

It is still much greater than the infinitesimal of:
.000 000 000 000 000 000 001 000 000 000 000 000 001

I can have an infinitesimal line that is infinitely larger than another infinitesimal
Line they both would appear as points.




Yes, infinitesimal is something. I don't agree with the rest.

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:40 pm
We only know of time as the relation of somethings. Time is just ratios.
No. Time is an entity.

Time is a separate entity from other things we experience.

How so if we experience things through it?

We experience things as time passes. Time is an entity that allows to accommodate two states of existence in the beginning and end of an infinitesimal.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:25 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:06 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:18 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:54 pm

It takes infinitesimal amount of time to reach from nothing to something. This process, nothing to something, has to have a duration, infinitesimal.

Infinitesimal is still a something.

If I have an infinitesimal of .000 000 000 000 000 000 001

It is still much greater than the infinitesimal of:
.000 000 000 000 000 000 001 000 000 000 000 000 001

I can have an infinitesimal line that is infinitely larger than another infinitesimal
Line they both would appear as points.




Yes, infinitesimal is something. I don't agree with the rest.

It doesn't matter, nothing then something is instantaneous as any progression requires a relation of somethings.





No. Time is an entity.

Time is a separate entity from other things we experience.

No, it is not seperate as experiences are manifestation of time. An experience is a state of being involved in some change. If I experience eating food, I am experience a sense of change. If I am experiencing "falling in love" I am experiencing some change of identity (another person's is now intertwined), etc.

How so if we experience things through it?

We experience things as time passes. Time is an entity that allows to accommodate two states of existence in the beginning and end of an infinitesimal.

If time is an entity, and entities are subject to time, then time is subject to itself.
Change, changes fundamentally.

For example, if the rock changes to a pebble is is still composed of the movements of the atoms which compose it.

The movements of the atoms, as changing, further change when the rock is turned into pebbles.

Further changes occurs when the pebbles turn minerals and minerals become part of an organic nature, which in turn decomposes and ends up as rock again.

Time is fundamentally movements within movements, with these movements as repetitive in nature being cycles within cycles.

Age
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Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by Age » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:29 am

bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:05 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm

Yes.


Everything changes at now. God also is subject to time.
Do you purposely mean to come across as COMPLETELY and UTTERLY NOT understanding any thing at all about what it is that I am pointing out?
Yes. I understand what you are trying to say.
Although you just completely contradicted yourself here. What you have written is good to know anyway.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
So, now I have to ask you what is this 'God' thing?
The creator of everything by definition.
When I ask, What is this 'God' thing? or, What is this 'time' thing? I am NOT asking what do these things supposedly do, but What are they, exactly?

Like if I was to ask, What is this 'tree' thing. I want to KNOW what it IS, NOT what it supposedly does.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
Is it any thing like this 'time' thing, which you talk about but are completely AND utterly unable to explain, describe, and define?
This question to explain what an elementary thing is completely irrelevant. A elementary thing simply is.
But IF you can NOT point us to, and thus NOT SHOW what this supposed elementary thing IS, then there is NO prove that it actually exists at all.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm

Can you tell me what an electron is?
If I was asserting that I KNEW what it was and what it did, then YES I would be able to tell you what an electron IS.

However, I do NOT like to go and assert things that I am unable to explain, describe, nor define, therefore I do NOT do that.
Is there anything that you can explain?
Yes, what I ASSERT and say I KNOW.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Electron is an entity with the specific properties. The same applies to time. Time is an entity with the specific properties, as it stated several times.
And LOL this is way beyond any kind of joke now.

What it appears that you are REALLY asserting now IS, to you, 'time' is some thing but in all truth you have absolutely NO idea what it even could be, let alone what 'time' IS, correct?
No.
Okay.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm

What do you want me to explain?
What you assert is TRUE and REAL.

If you want to propose that you KNOW some thing, then I want to be at least able to explain what it is that you are proposing.

What else could you think I wanted you to explain?

You ASSERT 'time' is a real THING. So, I WANT you to explain what 'time' IS.

I thought the question I posed to you which was; What is 'time', exactly? might have given you a clue as to what I WANT you to explain, exactly.
No, I have no clue what you are looking for. You cannot explain what an elementary thing is. It simply exists. It is not made of anything.
Turning this back onto me, especially in relation to some thing that I have NEVER even talked about, let alone even mentioned, is just ANOTHER EXAMPLE of how human beings will keep TWISTING and DISTORTING things, in order to NOT look at what I saying, and to KEEP and MAINTAIN their OWN already held BELIEFS.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm

Where are two points located?
Wherever 'you', the human being, places them
Where do you place them?
What is with your attempts at diversionary tactics?

Do you seriously just want us to FORGET about you and your assertion, which is; it is a completely IMPOSSIBILITY for change to occur if 'time' did not exist?
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Is a duration for reaching from one point to another point?
The question does not appear, to me anyway, as though it is asking some thing fully.

To me, a 'duration' is the measured distance between two points. For example, the answer to the question; How long did it take to get from one named "point" to another named "point"? would be the 'duration'.
No, we have distance between two points and duration that it takes to go from one point to another.
What do you think a clock or a watch does when they measure distance between two points? Could it be 'duration' that they are measuring? If yes, then could duration just be the 'measured distance' between two points?
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
You can travel slow or fast. You experience that duration changes accordingly while distance is constant.
If you say so, but, once again, you are just 'trying to' divert away FROM your CLAIM.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm

No, it is like electron, quarks, etc.
I think you might find this is a little bit different as electrons, quarks, et cetera can be observed or measured with tools, whereas, to me 'time' can not be observed nor measured with tools, as it is the actually measuring of things, taken from tools, clocks, watches, et cetera, which is what the word 'time' relates to and/or defines.

What does 'time', to you, actually look like when observed or measured?
I experience time.
Okay. So, how EXACTLY do 'you', "bahman", experience 'time'?
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm

What do you mean with what?
I NEVER said any thing about "with what".

But if you want to KNOW what I want you tell us 'with', then I suggest 'with' those fingers on a keypad.
What do you want?
The exact same thing, that is; Provide proof for your CLAIM.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm
What is your answer when I ask what is an electron?
The same as I gave you before. I am NOT even asserting an electron exists, therefore I do NOT have to KNOW what an electron IS exactly. But if I did WANT to know, and/or did then want to share the answer with you, then I would look up some scientific literature to find the answer.

Is there ANY scientific literature that actually explains what 'time' IS exactly?

If no, then WHY do you say that 'time' is an 'entity'?

If yes, then WHY do you NOT just read that "scientific literature", and then tell us what 'time' actually IS?
I am a scientist. I know what I am talking about.
This is the MOST absurd thing to claim, in response to what I am asking.

To now claim, I KNOW because 'I' am a "scientist", is BEYOND ABSURDITY.

If you do NOT provide the evidence AND proof, then your claim that you KNOW is just NOTHING at all REALLY.
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm

You need to tell me what do you mean with "what is time?"
Okay. But why do I 'NEED TO'?

If we have to go backwards to the very beginning of learning how to understand what it is that "another" person is saying, then, when an adult human being like yourself starts telling us, still learning and less knowing ones, that either 'time' exists or that 'God' exists, then us, who are still inquisitive and OPEN, tend to wonder; What is this 'thing' actually that these older human beings tell us exist but can NOT tell us what 'it' IS actually. So, what we, of the lesser knowledgeable do, is to ask 'you', of the older age, What is this 'thing' [either 'time' or 'God'] in which you speak of. This is like if you were to tell us about a 'tree' or a 'sailing' ship, and we had not yet had any experience at all of either. We would say some thing like; What is a 'tree'? Or, What is a sailing 'ship'? And then, if you actually KNEW what you were actually talking about, either through observations and/or experiences, then you would, hopefully, explain what you KNEW to us. But, if you did NOT because either you could NOT or just would NOT, then we become VERY DISINTERESTED in what you are saying, and usually just give up listening to you, which is what I USED TO DO.

I, however, now like to POINT OUT and SHOW the inconsistencies of what 'you', human beings, who say, or make out, that you actually KNOW some thing as well as ask you to CLARIFY what you actually ASSERT is the truth. I do this because then either I LEARN more and/or anew. I either LEARN that what I thought was right is actually wrong OR I LEARN that what I think is right might even be MORE right now.
What is a tree? Please don't tell me that you cannot explain anything.
For a supposed "scientist" you really are NOT very knowledgeable are you?

Have you FORGOTTEN you make the CLAIM that 'time' is an ENTITY, which exists. You have even further CLAIMED that change could NOT occur without this entity that you call "time".
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm

No. Time is not similar to any other thing that you know, electron for example.
HOW would you KNOW what I "know", AND that 'time' is NOT similar to ANY of those things.

You are just appearing to say more absurd things now, in order to just STICK to what you ALREADY BELIEVE is the Truth of things.
Whatever. You already say that you are not listening to what I am saying.
Now, are you making ANOTHER ABSURD CLAIM?

WHEN did I say any such thing?
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm

God, Itself is subject to time if there is any.
LOL you will NOT stop 'trying', will you?

1. You did NOT answer the ACTUAL clarifying question.
2. HOW do you KNOW 'God', Itself is "subject to time"?
Because there are two states in which God exists within, God only and God and the creation. There should be a duration between two states of affair, therefore God is subjected to time.
LOL
LOL
LOL

Does God even exist, to you?
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:37 am
3. When you say, "if there is any", then are you referring to 'time' or to 'God'?
God.
So, if you do NOT even KNOW if God exists or NOT, then WHY did you state some thing like: "there ARE two states in which God exists within, ..."?

How about we just LOOK AT the actual Truth of things now?

Do you BELIEVE that 'time' is an entity, which exists, and that change could NOT even occur if 'time' did not exist?

If no, then what do you BELIEVE?

If yes, then great.

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Sculptor
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Re: Do you experience time when there is no change?

Post by Sculptor » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:24 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:49 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:52 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:26 pm

What is the difference between the state of anesthesia and the state in which you are waiting while nothing happens?
There is no state in any circumstances when "nothing happens".
Have you ever been waiting in a doctor's office?
Yes a hive of activity.
People coughing, people reading. people holding their breath, annoying kids playing.
Gossip, groaning, moaning.
Pure hell

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