Do you experience time when there is no change?

[bahman]

Do you purposely mean to come across as COMPLETELY and UTTERLY NOT understanding any thing at all about what it is that I am pointing out?

Yes. I understand what you are trying to say.

Although you just completely contradicted yourself here. What you have written is good to know anyway.

I am not aware of any contradiction in what I said.

So, now I have to ask you what is this 'God' thing?

The creator of everything by definition.

When I ask, What is this 'God' thing? or, What is this 'time' thing? I am NOT asking what do these things supposedly do, but What are they, exactly?

Like if I was to ask, What is this 'tree' thing. I want to KNOW what it IS, NOT what it supposedly does.

What is tree?

Is it any thing like this 'time' thing, which you talk about but are completely AND utterly unable to explain, describe, and define?

This question to explain what an elementary thing is completely irrelevant. A elementary thing simply is.

But IF you can NOT point us to, and thus NOT SHOW what this supposed elementary thing IS, then there is NO prove that it actually exists at all.

I already provide an argument in favor of time.

If I was asserting that I KNEW what it was and what it did, then YES I would be able to tell you what an electron IS.

However, I do NOT like to go and assert things that I am unable to explain, describe, nor define, therefore I do NOT do that.

Is there anything that you can explain?

Yes, what I ASSERT and say I KNOW.

What is a tree?

Wherever 'you', the human being, places them

Where do you place them?

What is with your attempts at diversionary tactics?

I just want to show that my argument follows.

Do you seriously just want us to FORGET about you and your assertion, which is; it is a completely IMPOSSIBILITY for change to occur if 'time' did not exist?

No.

The question does not appear, to me anyway, as though it is asking some thing fully.

To me, a 'duration' is the measured distance between two points. For example, the answer to the question; How long did it take to get from one named "point" to another named "point"? would be the 'duration'.

No, we have distance between two points and duration that it takes to go from one point to another.

What do you think a clock or a watch does when they measure distance between two points? Could it be 'duration' that they are measuring? If yes, then could duration just be the 'measured distance' between two points?

Watch and clock measure duration compared to a standard duration.

Y
ou can travel slow or fast. You experience that duration changes accordingly while distance is constant.

If you say so, but, once again, you are just 'trying to' divert away FROM your CLAIM.

No, I am trying to take you to my claim.

I think you might find this is a little bit different as electrons, quarks, et cetera can be observed or measured with tools, whereas, to me 'time' can not be observed nor measured with tools, as it is the actually measuring of things, taken from tools, clocks, watches, et cetera, which is what the word 'time' relates to and/or defines.

What does 'time', to you, actually look like when observed or measured?

I experience time.

Okay. So, how EXACTLY do 'you', "bahman", experience 'time'?

Have you ever waited?

I NEVER said any thing about "with what".

But if you want to KNOW what I want you tell us 'with', then I suggest 'with' those fingers on a keypad.

What do you want?

The exact same thing, that is; Provide proof for your CLAIM.

I already provide my proof.

Okay. But why do I 'NEED TO'?

If we have to go backwards to the very beginning of learning how to understand what it is that "another" person is saying, then, when an adult human being like yourself starts telling us, still learning and less knowing ones, that either 'time' exists or that 'God' exists, then us, who are still inquisitive and OPEN, tend to wonder; What is this 'thing' actually that these older human beings tell us exist but can NOT tell us what 'it' IS actually. So, what we, of the lesser knowledgeable do, is to ask 'you', of the older age, What is this 'thing' [either 'time' or 'God'] in which you speak of. This is like if you were to tell us about a 'tree' or a 'sailing' ship, and we had not yet had any experience at all of either. We would say some thing like; What is a 'tree'? Or, What is a sailing 'ship'? And then, if you actually KNEW what you were actually talking about, either through observations and/or experiences, then you would, hopefully, explain what you KNEW to us. But, if you did NOT because either you could NOT or just would NOT, then we become VERY DISINTERESTED in what you are saying, and usually just give up listening to you, which is what I USED TO DO.

I, however, now like to POINT OUT and SHOW the inconsistencies of what 'you', human beings, who say, or make out, that you actually KNOW some thing as well as ask you to CLARIFY what you actually ASSERT is the truth. I do this because then either I LEARN more and/or anew. I either LEARN that what I thought was right is actually wrong OR I LEARN that what I think is right might even be MORE right now.

What is a tree? Please don't tell me that you cannot explain anything.

For a supposed "scientist" you really are NOT very knowledgeable are you?

Have you FORGOTTEN you make the CLAIM that 'time' is an ENTITY, which exists. You have even further CLAIMED that change could NOT occur without this entity that you call "time".

What is a tree?

LOL you will NOT stop 'trying', will you?

1. You did NOT answer the ACTUAL clarifying question.
2. HOW do you KNOW 'God', Itself is "subject to time"?

Because there are two states in which God exists within, God only and God and the creation. There should be a duration between two states of affair, therefore God is subjected to time.

LOL
LOL
LOL

Does God even exist, to you?

No. Because there is a contradiction in the act of creation, God needs time to create and time is part of creation.

[bahman]

There is no state in any circumstances when "nothing happens".

Have you ever been waiting in a doctor's office?

Yes a hive of activity.
People coughing, people reading. people holding their breath, annoying kids playing.
Gossip, groaning, moaning.
Pure hell

But suppose that there is no-one except you. Have you ever waited for something?

[Sculptor]

Have you ever been waiting in a doctor's office?

Yes a hive of activity.
People coughing, people reading. people holding their breath, annoying kids playing.
Gossip, groaning, moaning.
Pure hell

But suppose that there is no-one except you. Have you ever waited for something?

Of course.
But even waiting is something happening.

[bahman]

Yes a hive of activity.
People coughing, people reading. people holding their breath, annoying kids playing.
Gossip, groaning, moaning.
Pure hell

But suppose that there is no-one except you. Have you ever waited for something?

Of course.
But even waiting is something happening.

What is happening?

[Sculptor]

But suppose that there is no-one except you. Have you ever waited for something?

Of course.
But even waiting is something happening.

What is happening?

I already told you.
Please pay attention.

[bahman]

Of course.
But even waiting is something happening.

What is happening?

I already told you.
Please pay attention.

Yes. You told me that there is heart that is pumping blod in the body, etc. There are things which happen but you don't experience them. From such a state of mind, you can easily reach a state of mind which you only experience waiting, the passage of time.

[Sculptor]

What is happening?

I already told you.
Please pay attention.

Yes. You told me that there is heart that is pumping blod in the body, etc. There are things which happen but you don't experience them. From such a state of mind, you can easily reach a state of mind which you only experience waiting, the passage of time.

I experience my heart beating.
I experience this especially when there is nothing else seemingly happening.
Go sit in a dark quiet room and tell me you cannot feel your body and your heart beating. If you can't you are an alien or dead.

[bahman]

I already told you.
Please pay attention.

Yes. You told me that there is heart that is pumping blod in the body, etc. There are things which happen but you don't experience them. From such a state of mind, you can easily reach a state of mind which you only experience waiting, the passage of time.

I experience my heart beating.
I experience this especially when there is nothing else seemingly happening.
Go sit in a dark quiet room and tell me you cannot feel your body and your heart beating. If you can't you are an alien or dead.

Meh. I cannot help you. You don't even experience waiting.

[gaffo]

surreptitious57, Age, bahman & gaffo,

You’ve contributed a number of interesting remarks to the discussion about time.

To my way of thinking, time is imaginary. Time is a construct created by humans in order to comprehend change. I say this because there’s no reason that more than one change can’t happen together.

Suppose, for argument’s sake, that I speak just one syllable. A sound emanates from my vocal chords while air makes the chords vibrate and the tongue, lips and facial muscles are configured in a specific arrangement together with some molecules of oxygen being taken up by my lungs and some amount of blood being pushed by a heartbeat, just to name a few of the changes that can take place simultaneously.

And I know that unless there’s a limit to the number of changes that can occur together, all change could happen at once. Surely if, say, a lot of changes, or all change, happened at once, the experience would be confusing or incomprehensible to humans.

I believe change must be split into manageable sequences in order for us to understand our experiences. If we could not create time, our experiences would be chaos.

motion of atoms above needed for your voice to carry,

so time is motion literally.

no motion no time.

So, to you, there is absolutely no distinction between 'time' and 'motion', correct?

yep.

If yes, then, to you, are they the exact same thing?

I suspect they are the same, if you can provide a separation of the two, I'm all hears.

I do value learning, even it means i'm shown to be wrong.

[Sculptor]

Yes. You told me that there is heart that is pumping blod in the body, etc. There are things which happen but you don't experience them. From such a state of mind, you can easily reach a state of mind which you only experience waiting, the passage of time.

I experience my heart beating.
I experience this especially when there is nothing else seemingly happening.
Go sit in a dark quiet room and tell me you cannot feel your body and your heart beating. If you can't you are an alien or dead.

Meh. I cannot help you. You don't even experience waiting.

The point is that we all experience waiting, fool

[bahman]

I experience my heart beating.
I experience this especially when there is nothing else seemingly happening.
Go sit in a dark quiet room and tell me you cannot feel your body and your heart beating. If you can't you are an alien or dead.

Meh. I cannot help you. You don't even experience waiting.

The point is that we all experience waiting, fool

What is waiting?

[Age]

motion of atoms above needed for your voice to carry,

so time is motion literally.

no motion no time.

So, to you, there is absolutely no distinction between 'time' and 'motion', correct?

yep.

If yes, then, to you, are they the exact same thing?

I suspect they are the same, if you can provide a separation of the two, I'm all hears.

I do value learning, even it means i'm shown to be wrong.

There is no wrong, in things like these, because ALL things are relative to perspective.

To you, 'time' is just the exact same as 'motion', which is fine.

To me, however, 'motion', without going into specific definition, is a part of change. Whereas, 'time' is just the name given to the measuring of motion/change.

To me, I have not observed nor experienced an actual thing as 'time', so that is why I refer it to the measuring only.

[Sculptor]

Meh. I cannot help you. You don't even experience waiting.

The point is that we all experience waiting, fool

What is waiting?

It's what happens when a person is patient enough to expect you to say something intelligent.
In this case time seems infinite.

[bahman]

The point is that we all experience waiting, fool

What is waiting?

It's what happens when a person is patient enough to expect you to say something intelligent.
In this case time seems infinite.

So you experience something that happens. That thing is called psychological time.

[Sculptor]

What is waiting?

It's what happens when a person is patient enough to expect you to say something intelligent.
In this case time seems infinite.

So you experience something that happens. That thing is called psychological time.

I've been patient with you. Now is the time to let you go.