How time does change?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2318
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

How time does change?

Post by bahman » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:08 pm

Time is subjected to change. We need time for any change. Therefore we need time to have change in time which is a regress.

Impenitent
Posts: 2358
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: How time does change?

Post by Impenitent » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:34 pm

the magic 8 ball says "ask again tomorrow"

-Imp

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4761
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

"We need time for any change."

Post by henry quirk » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:56 am

I've always thought the opposite: that is, We need change for time (to be).

Consider: an utterly vacant universe, just an empty volume, not a single particle. Does time exist in such a place?

Now: introduce a radioactive particle to this volume. Leaving aside that we can't measure the decay of this particle without introducing ourselves into the volume (it's a half-assed thought experiment so: just go with it), we can measure the decay of this particle and suddenly we have 'past' (the particle's previous state), 'present' (the particle's current state), and 'future' (the particle's projected or anticipated or possible state), and we have an 'arrow', a direction with decay (entropy) moving relentlessly 'forward'.

Time, it seems to me, is (measured or measurable) change in 'something': no 'something' and/or no change = no time.

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2318
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: "We need time for any change."

Post by bahman » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:29 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:56 am
I've always thought the opposite: that is, We need change for time (to be).

Consider: an utterly vacant universe, just an empty volume, not a single particle. Does time exist in such a place?

Now: introduce a radioactive particle to this volume. Leaving aside that we can't measure the decay of this particle without introducing ourselves into the volume (it's a half-assed thought experiment so: just go with it), we can measure the decay of this particle and suddenly we have 'past' (the particle's previous state), 'present' (the particle's current state), and 'future' (the particle's projected or anticipated or possible state), and we have an 'arrow', a direction with decay (entropy) moving relentlessly 'forward'.

Time, it seems to me, is (measured or measurable) change in 'something': no 'something' and/or no change = no time.
I have an argument for "any change requires time". Consider a change in a system, A to B. A and B cannot lay on the same point since otherwise you cannot have a change, therefore, we need a variable to accommodate two states in two different points. There should be a duration between two points otherwise change does not occur at all. We call this variable as time.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4761
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Mebbe I'm not seein' the difference cuz...

Post by henry quirk » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:42 pm

...it seems like you and me are saying the same thing.

Your variable is just measured change, yeah?

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2318
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Mebbe I'm not seein' the difference cuz...

Post by bahman » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:52 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:42 pm
...it seems like you and me are saying the same thing.


Your variable is just measured change, yeah?
No, my variable allows change.


User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 587
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: How time does change?

Post by Sculptor » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:24 pm

bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:08 pm
Time is subjected to change. We need time for any change. Therefore we need time to have change in time which is a regress.
Only in your head.

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2318
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: I'm gonna have to think on it cuz I'm not gettin' what you're sayin.

Post by bahman » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:08 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:56 pm
:confused:
Look, we need two points to accommodate a change in a system, A to B. That is a two steps process. One point is not enough since A and B, in this case, co-exist simultaneously. Our reality is not timeless so we need to discard it. There should be a duration between A to B too otherwise the change does not take place.

Let me know if something is unclear.

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2318
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: How time does change?

Post by bahman » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:15 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:24 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:08 pm
Time is subjected to change. We need time for any change. Therefore we need time to have change in time which is a regress.
Only in your head.
What is wrong with my argument?

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 587
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: How time does change?

Post by Sculptor » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:15 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:24 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:08 pm
Time is subjected to change. We need time for any change. Therefore we need time to have change in time which is a regress.
Only in your head.
What is wrong with my argument?
There is no argument.
You fall at the first hurdle.
"Time is subjected to change".
Whilst out perception of time is a subject of our experience, time objectively is not.
Time required for change is objective time.
And your "therefore" is not a therefore in any sense. I've no idea why you think so.

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2318
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: How time does change?

Post by bahman » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:10 am

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:15 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:24 pm

Only in your head.
What is wrong with my argument?
There is no argument.
You fall at the first hurdle.
"Time is subjected to change".
Could you please follow my discussion with henry quirk. Time, as I explained, is necessary for change. I also argue that time is subject to changes. We are not living in a timeless universe when everything is simultaneous. The only other option than timeless universe is the temporal universe, our universe for example.
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
Whilst out perception of time is a subject of our experience, time objectively is not.
Without psychological time we cannot even have a sense of motion/changes.
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
Time required for change is objective time.
Yes, objective time is important for things that happen outside your mind.
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
And your "therefore" is not a therefore in any sense. I've no idea why you think so.
I will try to help you to understand my thoughts.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4761
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

I'm still thinkin' on it.

Post by henry quirk » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:45 am

:thinking:

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 587
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: How time does change?

Post by Sculptor » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:18 pm

bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:10 am
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:15 pm

What is wrong with my argument?
There is no argument.
You fall at the first hurdle.
"Time is subjected to change".
Could you please follow my discussion with henry quirk. Time, as I explained, is necessary for change. I also argue that time is subject to changes. We are not living in a timeless universe when everything is simultaneous. The only other option than timeless universe is the temporal universe, our universe for example.
No, not necessarily. You might as well say that change is necessary for time, as time is necessary for change. You can argue that time is subject to change all you like, but that does not make it so. And it matters not a jot how many times you say it: the nature of time is not changing.
If there seems a paradox, it is with your perception, not with time or the universe.

Actually everything is simultaneous. That much is obvious, but time moves on and empowers movement of matter. But for any given moment everything is in fact simultaneous. Things cannot exist in different times, when at rest.
Time frames do in fact exist, but they are strictly governed by velocity, and their differences are so minor unless the velocities are some significant proportion of the Speed of Light, which is constant.
Your other option is not an option.
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
Whilst out perception of time is a subject of our experience, time objectively is not.
Without psychological time we cannot even have a sense of motion/changes.

So what? This is not relevant.
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
Time required for change is objective time.
Yes, objective time is important for things that happen outside your mind.
Since humans exist in the same universe, we are all in objective time, including our "mind" whatever that might be.
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
And your "therefore" is not a therefore in any sense. I've no idea why you think so.
I will try to help you to understand my thoughts.
Not unless you address the numerous problems with them.

You need to look at the solutions to Zeno's arrow and his apparent time paradoxes. This has all been done before. - and solved

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2318
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: How time does change?

Post by bahman » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:37 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:18 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:10 am
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
There is no argument.
You fall at the first hurdle.
"Time is subjected to change".
Could you please follow my discussion with henry quirk. Time, as I explained, is necessary for change. I also argue that time is subject to changes. We are not living in a timeless universe when everything is simultaneous. The only other option than timeless universe is the temporal universe, our universe for example.
No, not necessarily. You might as well say that change is necessary for time, as time is necessary for change.
I can experience time when there is no change.
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:18 pm
You can argue that time is subject to change all you like, but that does not make it so.
I have an argument for "time changes". Events are synced but they are not simultaneous since we experience changes. I think that is evident. This means that we are living in a temporal universe where events happens in a specific direction, the direction of change of time, past now and future. I argue that for any change you need time. We experience changes. Therefore, time exists and changes.
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:18 pm
And it matters not a jot how many times you say it: the nature of time is not changing.
I didn't say that the nature of time doesn't change.
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:18 pm
If there seems a paradox, it is with your perception, not with time or the universe.
I am providing my reason which is based on facts, consistent observations.
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:18 pm
Actually everything is simultaneous.
That is not true. We know that change exists. That means that events occur on different stances of time. Therefore, our universe is temporal.
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:18 pm
That much is obvious, but time moves on and empowers movement of matter. But for any given moment everything is in fact simultaneous. Things cannot exist in different times, when at rest.
We are living in a temporal universe.
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:18 pm
Time frames do in fact exist, but they are strictly governed by velocity, and their differences are so minor unless the velocities are some significant proportion of the Speed of Light, which is constant.
True.
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:18 pm
Your other option is not an option.
What is other option?
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
Whilst out perception of time is a subject of our experience, time objectively is not.
Without psychological time we cannot even have a sense of motion/changes.

So what? This is not relevant.

It is very relevant. Time is need for any change whether the subject of change is internal/subjective/psycological or external/objective/physical.
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
Time required for change is objective time.
Yes, objective time is important for things that happen outside your mind.
Since humans exist in the same universe, we are all in objective time, including our "mind" whatever that might be.
True.
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm
And your "therefore" is not a therefore in any sense. I've no idea why you think so.
I will try to help you to understand my thoughts.
Not unless you address the numerous problems with them.

You need to look at the solutions to Zeno's arrow and his apparent time paradoxes. This has all been done before. - and solved
Ok, I hope things are more clear now.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest