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Re:

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:58 pm
by Atla
henry quirk wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:53 pm As I understand it: space can have form (gravity wells, for example). If information is structure or organization why can't that information be in space itself (in the same way an old radio program [the Shadow really does know] isn't carried by the radio wave but 'is' the radio wave)?
That kind of structure or organization needs something that can make sense of it, so it's not 'information in itself'.

Anyway, information is supposed to be encoded at the event horizon, not encoded in space really, just at Planck length or in Planck length stuff at the horizon.
The Planck-length stuff there somehow also knows that it should participate in encoding the inside of that black hole (and not the outside, or just a part of the inside or whatever).
Also, somehow Planck-length stuff elsewhere in the universe knows that they don't have to encode information.

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:01 pm
by Atla
uwot wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:52 pm
Atla wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:42 pmIt's a fact (unless proven otherwise) that the universe isn't made of anything, like 'stuff' for example.
Whut? Something that isn't proven otherwise is a fact?
Atla wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:42 pmI won't explain that again.
Well, you've asserted it a few times, but I have never seen you explain it.
Yes you didn't even notice, that's why I won't try again.

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:21 pm
by uwot
Atla wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:01 pmYes you didn't even notice, that's why I won't try again.
Ah well. Could you at least point me to where you explained it?

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:53 am
by Atla
See what I mean? (just talking to myself) Black holes don't seem to have 'hair'. This is actually an idea that can be tested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMU79pBc0gw

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:53 am
by gaffo
Atla wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
The only actually interesting question here is whether "information" is lost in black holes or not. If the entire universe is entangled (which it probably is), then the answer is probably no. If it's not, then the answer is probably yes.
since nothing leaves a BH - unless hawkings is right - then maybe info is not lost if you wish to wait a few quadrillion years - there is no info about the stuff that falls inside of the EH.

so info is lost - forever - or for a few quadrillion years at best.

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:13 am
by Atla
gaffo wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:53 am
Atla wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
The only actually interesting question here is whether "information" is lost in black holes or not. If the entire universe is entangled (which it probably is), then the answer is probably no. If it's not, then the answer is probably yes.
since nothing leaves a BH - unless hawkings is right - then maybe info is not lost if you wish to wait a few quadrillion years - there is no info about the stuff that falls inside of the EH.

so info is lost - forever - or for a few quadrillion years at best.
It is irrelevant whether we, humans can track the info or not. And humans will probably never be able to monitor all the quantum fluctuations on the event horizon of a BH for quadrillions of years, so either way, info is lost for us, humans.
However if the universe is entangled (like one big 'wavefunction') then 'objectively' info may be never lost.

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:40 pm
by Atla
And so I have confidently predicted an astronomical discovery (which also goes against what people like Susskind and Hawking claimed and became mainstream) using just philosophy.

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:14 am
by Skepdick
Atla wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:40 pm And so I have confidently predicted an astronomical discovery (which also goes against what people like Susskind and Hawking claimed and became mainstream) using just philosophy.
All you have arrived at is the human desire for beauty, simplicity and symmetry. The innate drive towards Occam's razor. The quest for simple answers and complete truths.

You have intuited Noether's theorem and you have conceptualised the universe as a closed system.

Congratulations - you graduate to Monism.

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:10 pm
by Atla
Skepdick wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:14 am
Atla wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:40 pm And so I have confidently predicted an astronomical discovery (which also goes against what people like Susskind and Hawking claimed and became mainstream) using just philosophy.
All you have arrived at is the human desire for beauty, simplicity and symmetry. The innate drive towards Occam's razor. The quest for simple answers and complete truths.

You have intuited Noether's theorem and you have conceptualised the universe as a closed system.

Congratulations - you graduate to Monism.
No, I simply understood how human thinking works.
As I said, a few people here, including you, can't comprehend the abstract vs concrete distinction, so you can't spot such errors (or even make any sense at all, ever, really).

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:26 pm
by Atla
Skepdick wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:14 am ...
Oh that's right now I remember
TimeSeeker wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:49 pm Information is my religion.
WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW hahah :)

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:47 pm
by Skepdick
Atla wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:10 pm As I said, a few people here, including you, can't comprehend the abstract vs concrete distinction
Are you sure about this?
Atla wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:10 pm , so you can't spot such errors (or even make any sense at all, ever, really).
While you are bragging about your super-powers, perhaps you can tell us what an 'error' is.

Concretely speaking.

If I remember correctly, only one of us (hint: not you) is in the business of systems/reliability engineering where errors have concrete, measurable consequences.

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:49 pm
by Skepdick
Atla wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:26 pm WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW hahah :)
It's in the very computer you are using.

HAHAHAHAHA :)

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:16 pm
by Atla
Skepdick wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:49 pm ...
Well my guess is that a systems/reliability engineer, who must not make errors, would have some vague understanding about what a 'computer' is. But then again maybe you're part of the cleaning staff, so you do work there?

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:29 pm
by Skepdick
Atla wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:16 pm Well my guess is that a systems/reliability engineer, who must not make errors, would have some vague understanding about what a 'computer' is. But then again maybe you're part of the cleaning staff, so you do work there?
I notice you are deflecting from the ask.

I guess you aren't going to tell us what an 'error' is, eh ?

I was dying in anticipation to learn about the distinction between concrete and abstract errors.

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:03 am
by Eodnhoj7
Atla wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:10 pm
Skepdick wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:14 am
Atla wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:40 pm And so I have confidently predicted an astronomical discovery (which also goes against what people like Susskind and Hawking claimed and became mainstream) using just philosophy.
All you have arrived at is the human desire for beauty, simplicity and symmetry. The innate drive towards Occam's razor. The quest for simple answers and complete truths.

You have intuited Noether's theorem and you have conceptualised the universe as a closed system.

Congratulations - you graduate to Monism.
No, I simply understood how human thinking works.
As I said, a few people here, including you, can't comprehend the abstract vs concrete distinction, so you can't spot such errors (or even make any sense at all, ever, really).
You comprehend it? Then tell us what it is without going in circles.