Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
Atla
Posts: 2489
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Atla » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm

Saying that information, an abstraction about physical stuff, is encoded in physical stuff, is a thinking error nothing more. It's nonsensical, it's impossible, it's crazy.

They wanted to save the Second law of thermodynamics, but why? That too is crazy.
I think it's fairly obvious that if in some parts of the universe entropy is increasing, then in some other parts it must be decreasing; and that's what happens in Black holes. What would actually be inexplicable would be if the Second law indeed was universal.

Instead now many are arguing about whether the world is simulated or not. This looks like too much idiocy, so one has to ask, is the scientific progress somehow being derailed on purpose?

The only actually interesting question here is whether "information" is lost in black holes or not. If the entire universe is entangled (which it probably is), then the answer is probably no. If it's not, then the answer is probably yes.

Skepdick
Posts: 1610
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Skepdick » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:36 pm

You don't have to save thermodynamics. Black Holes approach maximum entropy. That's where the holographic principle off-sets the paradox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab8JIzckx_M

Ultimately though - you still have dualisms.

QFT or GR.
Small scale or large scale.
Quantum information or gravity.
Explanation or Consequences

uwot
Posts: 4370
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by uwot » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:39 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
Saying that information, an abstraction about physical stuff, is encoded in physical stuff, is a thinking error nothing more. It's nonsensical, it's impossible, it's crazy.
Well, if you take the view that the universe is made of some sort of 'stuff', (It's physical Jim, but not as we know it.) then information is anything that is true about that stuff.
Coupla quotes for ya:
“What we observe as material bodies and forces are nothing but shapes and variations in the structure of space.”
- Erwin Schrodinger.
“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.”
- Nikola Tesla
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
They wanted to save the Second law of thermodynamics, but why? That too is crazy.
I think it's fairly obvious that if in some parts of the universe entropy is increasing, then in some other parts it must be decreasing...
Dangerous word 'obvious'. Much better to support a conviction with an argument. Better still, some evidence. So, what's your reason for making that assertion?
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
...and that's what happens in Black holes. What would actually be inexplicable would be if the Second law indeed was universal.
If it were, then you would expect something like an expanding universe, cold background radiation, the milk in your coffee not leaping to one end of the cup...pretty much what we actually observe.
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
Instead now many are arguing about whether the world is simulated or not. This looks like too much idiocy, so one has to ask, is the scientific progress somehow being derailed on purpose?
Nah. It's just that some physicists are no better at philosophy than some of the loons on this forum.
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm
The only actually interesting question here is whether "information" is lost in black holes or not. If the entire universe is entangled (which it probably is), then the answer is probably no. If it's not, then the answer is probably yes.
Are you sure you mean 'entangled', which has a specific meaning, rather than something like 'interconnected', which you can make a much better case for?

Atla
Posts: 2489
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Atla » Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:06 pm

uwot wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:39 pm
Well, if you take the view that the universe is made of some sort of 'stuff', (It's physical Jim, but not as we know it.) then information is anything that is true about that stuff.
Coupla quotes for ya:
“What we observe as material bodies and forces are nothing but shapes and variations in the structure of space.”
- Erwin Schrodinger.
“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.”
- Nikola Tesla
The universe isn't actually 'made of stuff'. The point was that if we conceptualize the universe as physical stuff, then information is an abstraction of that physical stuff, like what is true about it.
Dangerous word 'obvious'. Much better to support a conviction with an argument. Better still, some evidence. So, what's your reason for making that assertion?
How could there be only an increase, with nothing to compensate for it? And where is your evidence for this, which looks like an impossibility?
If it were, then you would expect something like an expanding universe, cold background radiation, the milk in your coffee not leaping to one end of the cup...pretty much what we actually observe.
In addition to that, we would observe no black holes. But we do.
Are you sure you mean 'entangled', which has a specific meaning, rather than something like 'interconnected', which you can make a much better case for?
I meant entangled, but 'interconnected' would probably suffice too. To be honest I don't see the difference.

Skepdick
Posts: 1610
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Skepdick » Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:16 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:06 pm
The universe isn't actually 'made of stuff'. The point was that if we conceptualize the universe as physical stuff, then information is an abstraction of that physical stuff, like what is true about it.
No. The concept and words "physical stuff" are the abstraction of the actual physical stuff.

Noumena vs phenomena. Map vs territory. Dualism.
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:06 pm
How could there be only an increase, with nothing to compensate for it? And where is your evidence for this, which looks like an impossibility?
You are arguing for Noether's theorem.

It's only assumed as true. Nobody actually knows if it corresponds to reality. Symmetry is a human value - a deep desire.

It may or may not be a property of the Universe.
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:06 pm
I meant entangled, but 'interconnected' would probably suffice too. To be honest I don't see the difference.
Nobody knows if entanglement survives an event horizon.

uwot
Posts: 4370
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by uwot » Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:49 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:06 pm
The universe isn't actually 'made of stuff'.
Seems like a perfectly plausible hypothesis to me. Why are you convinced it isn't?
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:06 pm
The point was that if we conceptualize the universe as physical stuff, then information is an abstraction of that physical stuff, like what is true about it.
Dunno if you're old enough to remember vinyl records. The information was the shape of the groove. CDs? Well, it's all in the pits. That's kinda what physical encoding means.
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:06 pm
How could there be only an increase, with nothing to compensate for it?
Well, bear in mind that entropy is only formulated to account for closed systems. So take the coffee example. The milk spreads out. It doesn't have to unspread out somewhere else to make it all fair. We don't know if the observable universe is a closed system, no good reason to believe it is, but there is even less reason to think some other region is compensating for whatever goes on in our neighborhood.
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:06 pm
And where is your evidence for this, which looks like an impossibility?
Haven't got any. Bit trapped in the visible universe.
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:06 pm
...we would observe no black holes. But we do.
Why wouldn't we see black holes?
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:06 pm
I meant entangled, but 'interconnected' would probably suffice too. To be honest I don't see the difference.
Well, entanglement really refers to the measurable properties of pairs of particles. Interconnection is more about how fields affect every individual particle in the universe, although in practice, that only applies to gravity as far as we can tell.

Atla
Posts: 2489
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Atla » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:03 pm

uwot wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:49 pm
Dunno if you're old enough to remember vinyl records. The information was the shape of the groove. CDs? Well, it's all in the pits. That's kinda what physical encoding means.
When it comes to vinyls and CDs, we need the vinyls and CDs themselves, plus even additional machinery.

That's exactly not what physical encoding means when it comes to Black holes, where the physical stuff is supposed to be it's own encoding or some crazy shit like that.

Someone else?

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4922
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

two & a half cents

Post by henry quirk » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:26 pm

"Dunno if you're old enough to remember vinyl records. The information was the shape of the groove. CDs? Well, it's all in the pits. That's kinda what physical encoding means."

"When it comes to vinyls and CDs, we need the vinyls and CDs themselves, plus even additional machinery. That's exactly not what physical encoding means when it comes to Black holes, where the physical stuff is supposed to be it's own encoding or some crazy shit like that."

If information is structure, organization, then that's exactly what it means.

Signal vs noise. The message isn't in the medium; the medium 'is' the message.

Atla
Posts: 2489
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: two & a half cents

Post by Atla » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:29 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:26 pm
"Dunno if you're old enough to remember vinyl records. The information was the shape of the groove. CDs? Well, it's all in the pits. That's kinda what physical encoding means."

"When it comes to vinyls and CDs, we need the vinyls and CDs themselves, plus even additional machinery. That's exactly not what physical encoding means when it comes to Black holes, where the physical stuff is supposed to be it's own encoding or some crazy shit like that."

If information is structure, organization, then that's exactly what it means.

Signal vs noise. The message isn't in the medium; the medium 'is' the message.
Information encoded on Black hole horizons is exactly not structure, organization.

Someone else?

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4922
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

"Information encoded on Black hole horizons is exactly not structure, organization."

Post by henry quirk » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:30 pm

Why?

Explain it (simply) to me.

uwot
Posts: 4370
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by uwot » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:34 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:03 pm
That's exactly not what physical encoding means when it comes to Black holes, where the physical stuff is supposed to be it's own encoding or some crazy shit like that.
Well, it's the age old problem of ontology. All we know is that the information exists. It looks like particles exist and if they do, then a perfectly respectable hypothesis is that they are "shapes and variations in the structure of space". Quantum fields if you prefer. That is what information is.
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:03 pm
Someone else?
Be careful what you wish for.

You didn't explain why you think the universe isn't made of stuff.

Atla
Posts: 2489
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: "Information encoded on Black hole horizons is exactly not structure, organization."

Post by Atla » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:36 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:30 pm
Why?

Explain it (simply) to me.
There is no structure, or anything that could have structure. There's just supposed to be the encoded information (not encoded in anything) in order to generate the missing entropy.

Atla
Posts: 2489
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by Atla » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:42 pm

uwot wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:34 pm
You didn't explain why you think the universe isn't made of stuff.
It's a fact (unless proven otherwise) that the universe isn't made of anything, like 'stuff' for example. I won't explain that again.

uwot
Posts: 4370
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Information encoded on Black hole horizons is a mindnumbingly stupid idea

Post by uwot » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:52 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:42 pm
It's a fact (unless proven otherwise) that the universe isn't made of anything, like 'stuff' for example.
Whut? Something that isn't proven otherwise is a fact?
Atla wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:42 pm
I won't explain that again.
Well, you've asserted it a few times, but I have never seen you explain it.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4922
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Post by henry quirk » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:53 pm

As I understand it: space can have form (gravity wells, for example). If information is structure or organization why can't that information be in space itself (in the same way an old radio program [the Shadow really does know] isn't carried by the radio wave but 'is' the radio wave)?

#

"It's a fact (unless proven otherwise) that the universe isn't made of anything,"

Sure seems to be a helluva of a lot of 'something' all over the place. I know the deeper you go into that 'something' the less tangible or 'real' it appears, but these subnuclear ghosts sure seem to add up up to 'substance' when you climb up out of the pit.

In my 56 years I've never walked through a wall ('cept through a door). That is: a whole lotta nuthin' (wall) seems to impede a whole lotta nuthin' (me).

So: how was this fact established?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest