There is no emergence

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Skepdick
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Skepdick »

PTH wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:22 pm
Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:18 pmThat's consciousness. The start of the causal chain.
Absolutely.

The thing that wrote the book. Not the book.
Yes. The thing that wrote "The thing that wrote the book. Not the book."

That thing (which wrote "The thing that wrote the book. Not the book.") caused the text "The thing that wrote the book. Not the book." to appear on my screen.

I measured it.
Skepdick
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Skepdick »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:20 pm Consciousness cannot be measured, only the effects of consciousness can be measured.
Which can be said for all things empirical/scientific/epistemic. Mass cannot be measured, only the effects of mass can be measured.

Noumena cause phenomena.
uwot
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by uwot »

bahman wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:48 pmWhat you are experiencing is what is given to you by the electromagnetic field rather than my conscious field. What I am stressing is that there is no conscious field.
An electromagnetic field is only a region in which a charged particle is deflected. We only know a particle is charged, because it's deflected. So it's a bit circular, but it can all be measured.
We know that brain activity is associated with em activity, but it's a whopping leap to claim that consciousness is an em phenomenon.
Here's something to ponder:
"What we observe as material bodies and forces, are nothing but shapes and variations in the structure of space."
Erwin Schroedinger.
All that stuff you hear about unified theories ultimately boil down to describing what space is. Maybe we'll one day be able to explain consciousness in that context, but there's a way to go yet.
uwot
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by uwot »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:26 pm.Noumena cause phenomena.
Probably. But try telling an idealist.
PTH
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by PTH »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:23 pm
PTH wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:22 pm
Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:18 pmThat's consciousness. The start of the causal chain.
Absolutely.

The thing that wrote the book. Not the book.
Yes. The thing that wrote "The thing that wrote the book. Not the book."

That thing (which wrote "The thing that wrote the book. Not the book.") caused the text "The thing that wrote the book. Not the book." to appear on my screen.

I measured it.
That's right - you measured the screen contents.

Not the consciousness that generated them.
Skepdick
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Skepdick »

PTH wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:33 pm That's right - you measured the screen contents.

Not the consciousness that generated them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning

If you have an alternative/better hypothesis as to the causal chain which made those exact symbols to appear on my screen - lets hear it.

On the one hand you want explanations, on the other hand you seem to be opposed to adductive reasoning (which can be understood as inference to the best explanation). Seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too
Last edited by Skepdick on Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Dontaskme
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Dontaskme »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:26 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:20 pm Consciousness cannot be measured, only the effects of consciousness can be measured.
Which can be said for all things scientific/epistemic. Mass cannot be measured, only the effects of mass can be measured.

Noumena cause phenomena.
.. phenomena is noumena phenomenalizing ..

Mass cannot be measured because mass is inseparable from the consciousness in which it is known. A measuring tape does not know it can measure, measurement is a known objective idea in consciousness that cannot be measured. That which is known knows nothing, and nothing cannot be measured.
PTH
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by PTH »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:34 pm
PTH wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:33 pm That's right - you measured the screen contents.

Not the consciousness that generated them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning

If you have an alternative/better hypothesis as to the causal chain which made those exact symbols to appear on my screen - lets hear it.
Does that mean Tolstoy had the same amount of consciousness as a paperback copy of War and Peace?
Skepdick
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Skepdick »

PTH wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:45 pm Does that mean Tolstoy had the same amount of consciousness as a paperback copy of War and Peace?
No, it just means you lack understanding of Information theory.

And so you seem unable to distinguish between quantification, storage, and communication of information.

Books are a storage/communication medium.
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Dontaskme
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Dontaskme »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:34 pm If you have an alternative/better hypothesis as to the causal chain which made those exact symbols to appear on my screen - lets hear it.
To know the causal chain which makes appearances appear would be like the disney character Cinderella knowing her biological Father.

.
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Dontaskme
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Dontaskme »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:47 pm
PTH wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:45 pm Does that mean Tolstoy had the same amount of consciousness as a paperback copy of War and Peace?
No, it just means you lack understanding of Information theory.

And so you seem unable to distinguish between quantification, storage, and communication of information.

Books are a storage/communication medium.

No one can understand what is information which is knowledge which is theory by info bombing one with more information.

Knowledge is known by consciousness the only knowing there is which cannot be measured.


.
Skepdick
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Skepdick »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:04 pm Knowledge is known by consciousness the only knowing there is which cannot be measured.
Is knowledge known? That's a yes/no question!

Answering it requires 1 bit of information!

Is there a positive claim that cannot be posited as a yes/no question?
PTH
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by PTH »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:47 pmAnd so you seem unable to distinguish between quantification, storage, and communication of information.
Well, clearly I am distinguishing between them, because my point is you haven't distinguished between them.

And, in particular, what's missing is the understanding of the information.
PTH
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by PTH »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:05 pmIs knowledge known? That's a yes/no question!

Answering it requires 1 bit of information!
It requires more than that, because one bit, in isolation, means precisely nothing.
Skepdick
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Re: There is no emergence

Post by Skepdick »

PTH wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:07 pm And, in particular, what's missing is the understanding of the information.
Only the question requires understanding. Not information.
Information is that which reduces your uncertainty.
Information is the evidence you require to make up your mind.

Is PTH conscious?

A. Yes.
B. No.

My uncertainty is 50%.

If you don't know what the question means information can't help you!

Does the universe exist?

Same problem!
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